DIRTY NINJA EDIT!

I had this grand spiel with the whole damned conversation quoted, with remarks... I'm running out of beer so I submit.

Insert crow in mouth...

Tastes like chicken.


Not so simplified as you would think.

The argument between Mage spells being arrows and Thieves being Warriors is a pretty old one, couple decades just in my experience alone.

I've learned to submit, but could give you the typical talking points from back in the day if you prefer.

There was a time when people were disgusted with Thieves just as a concept, they thought anything that didn't cast magic should be a warrior.

2 archetypes and that was it...

Birthsigns are Standing Stones for all intents and purposes, this is a stretch by any barometer.

Yes I know that, for intent. Unfortunately it isn't technically a sign in which you were born under, unless you have a preconceived notion of who you are and pick the stone accordingly. This was done so there would be less choice that impacted static character traits. Todd's "You'll ruin your Build, You'll Ruin your Build, You'll Ruin your Build".

Perhaps, but static systems are awfully restrictive wouldn't you agree?

How many custom classes outside of the named/default stuff did you make before Skyrim?

Would you think that maybe most people preferred a more dynamic approach to character build?

This is another one of those instances where I say this same tired statement :

People are all for freedom and options until they start wanting restrictions.

You seem to focus on warping someones words into your own by using them in a context that suites your point.

It's better to take tools away from man than allow them to wreck all that we have accomplished. It's better to take tools away from man as they may think themselves god. It's better to take tools away from man as only then will they learn humility.

Meh...

Spellcrafting was just one of those things you had to be there for.

It was pretty freaking awesome, and one of the only things that made me actually put more than 20 hours into Oblivion. To be honest though... it only added another 20 hours for me. I just could NOT get into Oblivion for whatever reason.

I'd like to see a second coming of it, but not at the expense of Shouts. That is going to take some time to figure out how to implement it in a smart manner, the modifying PC community is pretty good for that.

I don't see how Shouts make it out of Skyrim honestly, and I fully expect spell-crafting to come back in TES VI with little or no Shouts at all.

This is a game. Tools are fun.

dbl post.

Yet we argue on forums over trivial crap related to said game.


I was there for it though, at least its Oblivion iteration. I honestly don't care if its in the game, I just think its absurd to claim that its removal destroyed the game as if people were so reliant on this one mechanic for their fun and enjoyment.

I don't even care about the dang system and I sat down and tried to formulate a way that it could work and have some type of synergy with the new mechanics. Even on paper it was absurdly complex and was severely limited given the state of the game. In a sense spellcrafting was a feature that made up for Bethesda's inability to create a functioning magic system.

Maybe I come from a different school of thought in which spells have are set in stone and I was never given the freedom to change that. Maybe I believe spellcrafting was just an extension of modding that was put into the game. Maybe it should stay as a modding mechanic rather than a game mechanic.

I also understand why people like the old system of character development... however I got bored after each character I created because they were never fleshed out, they were merely numbers and that illusion was easy to see through.

I was referring more to people asking for restrictions like :

You should have a static 'class' or set of attributes at the very beginning of the game that would or could never hope to ever use another skill/spell outside of their playstyle.

Pretty restrictive, and unrealistic I might add. Though that's an immersion argument and I loathe where those inevitably end up.

I actually agree with the entirety of the rest of your responses...

Every build I made in Oblivion was custom, and any build I made in a game that had such a choice was custom.

Hence highlighting the inherent flaw, for me at least, with defined static barriers of abilities.

I think it should be a question of efficiency, not availability.

Ive waited this long to bring it up because I thought somebody else would have already, but you do it like Fallout. There's static choice, there's diversity, and there's also means to go out of your way to raise it if you CHOOSE. An almost perfect 'attribute' system. Its been said since they announced no attributes. And there were early hopes that they may be able to mod them in since Beth said Skyrim originally had attributes.

As for vanilla build types in ES, the loss from Morrowind to Skyrim was too much. And Skyrim is the worst, its magic gets old so fast. After a few builds your already starting to heavily restrict yourself so your Witchdoctor isn't just your Necromancer in a loincloth.

A fair sentiment, and pretty impartially said.

Numbers and grids don't necessarily equate to complexity, and quite often they only relegate themselves to frustration in my experience.

I believe that its better to hide the numbers, attributes and such have you, than it is to have a 20 minute session every time you level up.

Spell crafting could add so much to the game, but I think it would probably be better suited for staffs. Probably the best way to implement it in Skyrim so that Shouts can still be practical.

I don't mind that some things have been taken out of skyrim but this poster is right. Too many gimmicks to impress the younger crowd who are too busy playing cod to delve deep into a game and actually RP.

H2H should never have been dumped. I play as a Vampire Noble and my weapons used to be for show until they ditched H2H.

Levitate should be in the game - What so i can slow down time itself, call a dragon to help me fight, move objects using telekinesis but i can't float?

I like dual casting though i think it adds another way of combat but it SHOULDN'T replace something.

Damnit...

I'm really going to have to play Fallout to continue these conversations on these forums.

I'll just have to take your word on it right now, for some reason I could never get into Fallout. My friends constantly rail on me about it.

Levitate is simply too game-breaking...

It uses too much resources at the cost of everything else.

The most pragmatic approach is simply to do away with the spell.

Name me another skill/spell that affects EVERYTHING in the game, from topography to combat to spelunking.

The ability to define the weight/damage of my daggers through smithing would add so much to the game.
The ability to define the duration and magnitude of my potions would add so much to this game.
The ability to define my height/weight of my character would add so much to this game.

Basically if I can define the mechanics of the game it adds more to the game but I now have complete control over something and at that point it becomes a sandbox game. It's no longer a game as you have control over something that is normally defined by the developer. You're no longer playing within their world but your own and that is the point in which you no longer need the developer.

At that point you can undermine everything they have sought to create. You're no longer within their control as you're no longer confined to their rules.

They announced perks before they announced no attributes for Skyrim, and at first everybody thought it was going to be like Fallout all the way down to how the attributes worked. In the end the only real way Skyrim is like Fallout is that attire is combined even more than in any previous ES.

Fixed. With great power, comes great responsibility.

If I were to start Fallout, where would you recommend I begin?

A practical approach mind you, I've got a backlog of games I have very little hope of completing.

Also :

lol @ how reasonable this conversation has become

Thats the thing about software, or any process...

The manufacturer defines the parameters and you define the rules.

You are leading me down the road of defending arguments I don't necessarily agree with though....

NV. Its technically, TECHNICALLY (puts up flame shield) better. And I don't mean that from a debugged standpoint. It simply has more than. Taking away everything story, plot and title related, NV has more mechanics, more features, more customization (except no plastic surgeon in vanilla, unless a DLC changed that) than 3. I don't really remember, I was Fallout-ed out by then. It also has more quests and by extension choices. People say the choices and such are similar to Fallout 1 ( a good thing). In reality they are actually a lot like Obsidian's previous game Alpha Protocols main plot and how subplots intertwined within them.

Which is why many establishments limit power and why we are all confined to the rules of the society we live in. Every game you're shackled and trapped with your past washed away. Your bindings are always freed however, except in this case your bindings are never gone, they're always there. You're always chained and shackled by the rules Bethesda has set.



So then are spells defined by rules or parameters? If they're defined by rules then everything should be free, the game should basically be the construction kit. If they're defined by the parameters then they're set in stone, something some people seem to love as freedom over time is to unlike what they're accustomed to.

Yes, in realty, but this is a game. The only thing abusing power does in this context is make you over powered. I'd also guarantee 'those tools' are the closest a console will ever get to a creation kit, ES wise. Which is all the more reason everybody should have it in a vanilla game.

Unfortunately at this point Skyrim would need more than just SC, it would need a whole slew of former spell effects back.

Stop looking at it as me, but them. Look at it from the point of view of the guy who took the time to balance the spells, or create the spells. Look at it from the point of view of the guy who made the AI, created the difficulties, and tried to create a challenge. Allowing for that much control destroys what they have done, even if it is on a small scale.

Its obvious none of that matters since there's a creation kit. The devs of Beth actually encourage such things. Enough to sit around and make a long tutorial for people new to the creation kit. It's obvious they want more, not just for us, but for themselves (gamejam footage). The fact that any of it is possible is a testament to all of Beth.

Isn't doing unrealistic things the entire point of magic? Or is there some secret group of people out there that can shoot fire from their fingers that I'm not aware of?

An illusion like Chameleon or an illusion like death and pants?