I'll agree with the spell creation sentiment, but there is much more potential for dual-wielding than what there is currently.

Spellcrafting renders many Shouts useless in the grand scheme of things, and was likely scrapped in favor of Shouts.

There is still one thing Skyrim does that spell-crafting couldn't... Shield + Spell + Shout.

It could be said that Shouts are only static multi-purpose spells, but as opposed to earlier iterations where spells were more or less instant... spells cost time and magicka now while Shouts are instant.

That is whats new, not just a dual-wielding... it is really a triple-wield.

It was scrapped because of time and or hardware limitations, this ridiculous new magic system, and some newbs had a hard time counting to 100. SC wouldn't render shouts useless, anymore than sigil stones rendered enchanting useless. I don't know what you mean by shield+spell shout. Like an actual shield, a spell and a shout? How would that not work if SC were implemented? Shouts work like greater powers that don't even really need to be 'cast', just activated.

@Zyghart

Didn't you do "this" before. Where you argue with people to the point where it gets them angry, the fact you are not listening, whilst generally being impossible and not making any sense/having any source for you argument?

No one is going to convince you anyway, you ARE the most stubborn person I have yet come across. You are like a terminator that shows no remorse or reason and you ceratinly can't be stopped.

Still funny to read though! You get 'em so mad.

That last bit he posted actually has some legitimate arguments in it. There's always exceptions I guess?

All that post needed was a #PretentiousElitist at the end and it would have been perfect.

The old system was needed because there was no way to affect the duration of spells without spellcrafting. Now we have that ability, the only abilities we don't have are the ability to totally alter magnitude on all spells, and the ability to totally control duration on some spells. Otherwise we have quite a bit of control over how the spells function and honestly it's a more balanced system.

Why, those are basically Todds words, not mine.

SC isn't just about 'leveling' spells, its about using your imagination, creating new things, and tailoring things to your RPs, or even being able to make new build and play style types with SC alone.

Todd isn't some dumb athlete on twitter, I really doubt he said at a press conference "We took out spell crafting because dumb newbs can't count to 100". Yeah, I'm sure his PR guy would have been thrilled about that as he basically sentenced Skyrim to death with the amount of publication we get.

I made a thread about spellcrafting and how it would work in Skyrim. The problem isn't the magic system, the problem is the whole game, and the fact that it was broken by allowing too much control over spells.

Look, I beat Skyrim for all intents and purposes...

So until expansion/DLC I am here to play the forums, anyone know if there are achievements?

No seriously, I normally drink when I come here and try to be reasonable when I can... Alcohol leads a man down some pretty sarcastic arguments, and pretty much everything I say is all in fun... I don't like making people mad. I'd rather have a discussion.

And MAN... I did post some arguments or points have you...

I'm not just going to accept generalizations as fact when I know damn well people are capable of more specific rhetoric, especially in an RPG forum where I would expect IQ's to be a little higher than the Colbert Forum where I spend most of my time.


Exceptions?

And yet he did. I guess you never saw/read the 'Spreadsheety' interview. Or the one that said why there are no chosen at 'character creation' birthsigns in Skyrim. and dont put words in my mouth, I never used the term "dumb".


Yes that you actually came up with something to say.

try an archer mage. or anything else that this games near-broken combat layout can't do

A momentary lapse of sobriety, defined by a response that was far too reasonable.

Have you been to Camelot?

I hear it is a silly place...

See this?

Non-generalization...

near-broken, not FUBAR'd...

While I don't agree, you get props man.

I am he who was him. I once owned Zarathustra in Scrabble.

You're putting words in Todds mouth so I felt it was only right.

Who do you think the spreadsheet would affect the most? Those who have to implement the system into the code? Those who mod the game? Or those who use spellcrafting to enhance spells? I'm going to say it would affect the developers who have to implement this more complex system (spellcrafting would be much more complex in Skyrim) than it would those who just use it casually like me.


If I'm reading this correctly you're saying the game can't do an Archer-Mage? If I'm understanding that correctly then that's interesting because conjuration provides both a tank and a bow that never runs out of ammo. Not to mention alteration spells that allow for more armor, illusion that allows for crowd control and restoration that allows for healing.

You'd honestly never need to have items as you could do everything yourself.

So the goal of this thread was to set up a straw man, and then have him knocked down? Posters will talk about what they can't do- they'll be told they can or how they can, and that settles the question there is nothing in Oblivion you can't also do in Skyrim.

Well, if you can get someone to believe that I guess it's fine.

what spreadsheet though? Counting to 100? All of the magicka calculations were done for you. With a little testing most anything is/was possible, believe me. The same 'spreadsheety' system that's always been in enchanting mind you. So who thought this was spreadsheety? How many threads about spell creations being far too complex arose before that announcement, or even Skyrims announcement? He basically said it was too complicated for neophytes to the system (a neophyte is a newb/noob, etc.).

I coupled that with referring to Todd saying people were "ruining their builds" with chosen, static birthsigns. The only way to ruin your build with a birthsign is not to read it and just start randomly selecting things. To be fair, I'm sure some people just chose, not knowing anything about ES, but why this lack of faith from the PR that we're some simpletons? Because it isn't for the Vets, the PR. Its for Newbs, or newer people to the series.

You can do different things in either game, if you could do the exact same thing in each game then you're starting to tread into Madden/CoD territory of development. Granted CoD has gone through its fair share of features since CoD4... Madden on the other hand still have terrible blocking which is all due to the code/engine that they refuse to fix.


Iam confused... you mentioned spreadhseet which is why I brought them up... also don't people refer to spellcrafting as this super complex, deep thing that was taken away... how can it be that if it wasn't complex?

As far as the builds go... to be fair I don't remember stunted magicka in morrowind ever being explained, nor was sanctuary ever explained. I do agree that having things set in stone can be a bad thing. Maybe I'm putting too much weight behind the words of Ken Rholston but even he likes a system where you craft your character over time.

Also birthsigns are still in the game so I don't see what the deal is.

+1

Provided you have a shrubbery of course.


To be fair, many arguments about Mages that center around offense revolve around how they are little more that archers. Its really the defensive or passive spells that define them as a 'Mage'.

The same argument could be made about how the Thief archetype is essentially the Warrior archetype.

Luckily we have dual-wielding, shouts, perks and Standing Stones to add further dynamics to the roles.

On attributes :

If you've ever played the old white-text-on-black-background MUD's... you know how tedious attributes really are.

There are simply better ways to visually and substantively represent these now.

You'll probably never get the fanatics on either side of the equation to shift views... its more about theory and viability.

You could create so and so, but how effective is it?

What can't you create? How could you do it with Skyrim's mechanics?

I enjoy the process one way or the other.

What, so I can shoot that one down too, then another, until you start producing more herrings?

ITTTTTTTT.

And my pen is little more than a pencil because it does the exact same thing. That's simplifying things to the point where you could argue that there is a relationship between a Dog and a crocodile because they both walk, and have mouths that bite things.

You could simplify it down and say there are no archetypes because they all do the same thing... kill. We are all one.

No Hand to Hand skill and the fact that Blades and Maces are one skill. Kind of makes no sense that my thief who uses a sword once in a blue moon and majors in Daggers can wield a mace perfectly.

Doesn't make sense that I could wield a one handed sword perfectly then switch to a two handed sword and wield it just as well. Honestly there is a lot more in common with a mace/sword than there is with a 1 handed sword/ 2 handed sword.

There are some awesome H2H mods out there that add perks and such to One Handed Tree and have all sorts of added animations that are actually in the game files, but are not used. Like breaking the neck from behind with your fist etc.

Todd mentioned spreadsheets in his PR, not me. SC was easy to use, but you could do complex, outside of the box things with it. Things that the devs hadn't even imagined. It was more than a mechanic, it was a Tool. The two biggest "Tools" in ES have always been Spell Creation, and Enchanting, followed by Alchemy. Enchanting has lost and gained over the series. Currently... its definitely not at its peak. and that's due to numerous reasons, but that's a different discussion.

As for the birthsigns, that was to further my point that Skyrim PR was definitely not aiming at people familiar with the series. In regards to the whole "Newb" thing.