And directions in your journal that tell you "take this path, make a left at the rock, and then take that 5 steps and turn right, and there's your quest dungeon" with a big yellow marker on your map is requiring you to think???

And I'm okay with features being removed, when they are replaced with more fleshed out, more in depth and more complex features instead, which is exactly what happened with Skyrim.

Weapon degradation was replaced with a fully fleshed out crafting system. a Menu? is a fully fleshed out Crafting system??

Spellmaking was replaced with a more in depth casting system and gameplay mechanics (which I admit is not fully fleshed out, but it's better than what we had) in depth? you mean holding the cast spell button down is more indept?

We lost Athletics and Acrobatics, but saw the inclusion of Enchanting and Pickpocketing which add more roleplay possibilities. what do you mean "inclusion" they were always there....

We lost questline length, but got much more involved and fleshed out individual quests. "220 hours in and I do not share that sentiment...."

We lost Attributes but instead got a fully fleshed out Perks system that allows for way more flexibility, specialization, and customization for characters. ok ok I'm done

We gained Dual Wielding which, whether you agree with how it was implemented or not (I happen to love it), it is a CHOICE that we never had before. More builds, more options.

We gained a much more detailed and complex world.

We gained actual puzzles in dungeons to overcome. They might not be overly complex, but they require you to think more than Morrowind dungeons ever did.

There are actually choices in the main quest. They may not be -huge- choices, but it is more choice than we ever had in Morrowind.

The fact is, the claims of "dumbed down" are 100% false - this game actually makes you "think" more than Morrowind ever did. So many times in Skyrim I've gotten lost going from point A to point B, or I've gotten stuck on how to solve a problem in a quest or a dungeon, and spent plenty of time trying to actually figure it out. Something I never had to do in Morrowind. I never had to "think" in Morrowind.

It's a fact, simply put, that Skyrim offers more than Morrowind ever did. It is more complex, and offers you more choice than Morrowind ever did. So you don't have a character stat page, can't create a spell, and NPC's don't respond to your deeds as much as you like. That doesn't equate to "dumbing down", when the game improved and became more complex in every other aspect of the game.

i think the word "imagine" has been thrown out of proportion. Speaking for myself at least, I always imagine I am the character while playing RPGs. Nothing absurd like writing a backstory or making up rules for my gameplay (although thats fine if you do), it's more like, what would I like to do right now, or "I don't want to join the thieves guild because my guy is a "good" guy."

For example, the game informer article with matt stone and trey parker, they point out that they hate it when their character speaks and has lenghy dialogue because, as they say, "thats not what I would say/do in this situation."

Same reason for the developers of Zelda not adding voice acting in the Zelda games; because hearing the voice actor takes away from the fact that we (in a sort of way) kind of pretend to 'be' that character while we are playing....

They probably got into bed with the wrong developer for their South Park RPG then. Obsidian tends to do very well at giving characters dialogue that would fit a character personality, but not necessarily what the player would say.

You do realize that attributes are just tip of the iceberg right? I mean [censored], even something as simple as wearing cloaks over armor was removed.

People just point out to attributes because they were the most obvious thing.

...

Agree, there's a reason why the 3 letters in RPG stand for Role Playing Game as in you play the game and assume the role of a character and then you tell the story and you have as much freedom to do so depending on the Dungeon Master. In that case, Beth has given us a huge amount of freedom to RP.

RPG's aren't 100% about stats although they do need some form of stats otherwise it's just a mindless action game. Skyrim certainly has it's stats, even though it's less then Oblivion it's done in a way that doesn't force you to screw with the system or focus on useless skills just to get +5 in a random attribute, or has useless attributes like Luck that don't do anything important.

And directions in your journal that tell you "take this path, make a left at the rock, and then take that 5 steps and turn right, and there's your quest dungeon" with a big yellow marker on your map is requiring you to think???

And I'm okay with features being removed, when they are replaced with more fleshed out, more in depth and more complex features instead, which is exactly what happened with Skyrim.

Weapon degradation was replaced with a fully fleshed out crafting system.

Spellmaking was replaced with a more in depth casting system and gameplay mechanics (which I admit is not fully fleshed out, but it's better than what we had)

We lost Athletics and Acrobatics, but saw the inclusion of Enchanting and Pickpocketing which add more roleplay possibilities.

We lost questline length, but got much more involved and fleshed out individual quests.

We lost Attributes but instead got a fully fleshed out Perks system that allows for way more flexibility, specialization, and customization for characters.

We gained Dual Wielding which, whether you agree with how it was implemented or not (I happen to love it), it is a CHOICE that we never had before. More builds, more options.

We gained a much more detailed and complex world.

We gained actual puzzles in dungeons to overcome. They might not be overly complex, but they require you to think more than Morrowind dungeons ever did.

There are actually choices in the main quest. They may not be -huge- choices, but it is more choice than we ever had in Morrowind.

The fact is, the claims of "dumbed down" are 100% false - this game actually makes you "think" more than Morrowind ever did. So many times in Skyrim I've gotten lost going from point A to point B, or I've gotten stuck on how to solve a problem in a quest or a dungeon, and spent plenty of time trying to actually figure it out. Something I never had to do in Morrowind. I never had to "think" in Morrowind.

It's a fact, simply put, that Skyrim offers more than Morrowind ever did. It is more complex, and offers you more choice than Morrowind ever did. So you don't have a character stat page, can't create a spell, and NPC's don't respond to your deeds as much as you like. That doesn't equate to "dumbing down", when the game improved and became more complex in every other aspect of the game.

Where is this fleshed out ness you speak of, because alot of the concerns are how shallow choices are in Skyrim...


Wow, there really isn't any discussion going on is there, just re affirmations of what peeps think fits well with their views done and done. blah I'm done here.

I'm tired of this statement "I'd like more, its not unreasonable, past games had more than this"

being turned into this"I'm self entitled, do this for me, I want this done my way or it svcks"


by those who oppose the view.

There is even a perk for wearing robes and clothes over armor, so the game obviously supports it.

To me, "Dumbed Down" means not challenging (but isn't a phrase I would use to describe the series). Skyrim simply is not a challenge, ie, it is not difficult (Yes, I played on Master). To an above poster, I think that it is absolutely absurd that you have ever gotten lost going from point A to point B. How is that even possible? I have played the game for about 75 hours and so far it has brought very little entertainment when compared to other games. Once the game gets going, it dies off very quickly, primarily because it lacks any impetus to continue playing--that is to say, there is insufficient variation in the game's progression to remain appealing.

This game doesn't feel like an RPG game. Where are the parts where I'm supposed to care about a person in this game? Where is the part where I am supposed to feel like I am making a difference in this world? Where is the part where I struggle to decide which path I will take? It could be that my expectations are too high, but I think if games from 13 years ago can capture my complete attention more than a game with a budget thousands times the size of previous, more entertaining, games, then I must conclude that RPG's are definitely going in the wrong direction and will soon become obsolete. I am disappointed by the fact that this world is so huge and yet is utterly un-interesting.

They probably got into bed with the wrong developer for their South Park RPG then. Obsidian tends to do very well at giving characters dialogue that would fit a character personality, but not necessarily what the player would say.

What is the perk you speak of?

I agree with most of what you stated. There is a problem when the actually dialogue and text in general is reduced so that it is less difficult to read (i.e. a standard many use to determine the difficulty of a text is the average size of the words used). The more choices in how your character can influence a quest event allows for greater flexibility for creating a unique experience with different characters. It is boring to be rail-roaded with taking quests 'their way or the highway'. Important NPCs (not just high ranking, but integral to plot lines/quests, because not all stories in the game are wrapped up in quests) should allow you to really experience them by displaying their essence in dialogue (also having them interact with other NPCs and their environment in unique ways would be nice).

bah... I think I lost track of what I was thinking about and just ranted.

Alteration - Mage Armor. "Flesh" spells give you an extra armor bonus when wearing only clothing. Has 3 ranks.

That is not actually wearing armor tho, I do like the mage armor spell too.
Great for any pure mage.

Alteration - Mage Armor. "Flesh" spells give you an extra armor bonus when wearing only clothing. Has 3 ranks.

I don't see the dialogue in Skyrim as any less in depth than the dialogue in Morrowind. Morrowind was rather generic, and the same thing over and over again from every NPC in the world.

Lots of essential NPC's have expansive dialogue about their history, and the role they play in the world. Dialogue I haven't had a problem with.

Would more branching dialogue options be good? Of course! But I still find it to be just as good, if not better, than anything we've had in the series to this point. It's not like Morrowind or Oblivion had much in the way of branching dialogue options. At least Skyrim has -some-

That's... the point.

The query was in regards to not being able to wear robes or clothing in the game, when there is a perk just for that. That perk is all about not wearing armor, since if you do wear armor, it's a useless perk.

The phrase means "I don't ike this feature."

contrary to what ever you believe on the grounds that I'm selfish or being self entitled or what ever, even though I disprove the Term Casuals, Consoles are the bain of gaming and are the reason we're losing stuff. I for one PROMOTE options not for myself, but for everyone. I see no point in mentally supporting the game in anyway that has nothing to do with my Character, I don't know about all these "tools" skyrim provides that you're going on about, but I sure as hell notice the bare boned options and avenues to delve my Chars in.

its most people want things simple it is not the consoles at all I doubt a casual would even play Skyrim if they do it would only be for a few minutes.

A casual gamer to me is somebody that plays a game just every so often for fun.

Also how can you defend every group and then all of the sudden turn on the consoles, its not a machines fault its Bethesdas trying to cater to a wider audience, and they are making thing simple for mass appeal.