No, you're not close, you keep thinking that I just make everything up in my mind, and go on my merry way.

Skyrim offers me the roleplay tools that I need to actually roleplay within the confines of the game. Not once playing the game have I felt like my choice of dialogue, my choice of action, or the consequences of my actions were not well represented in the game world. So why you think they aren't there, I will never know, but I have never once had a problem with the choice I had in the game. And any time I did do something out of character, it was my fault for doing something out of character, not because the game didn't give me a proper option.

Dialogue wise, the options are more than we've ever had before. Acknowledgement of our actions is about the same or better than we had before. It's not like things have actually devolved or anything since Morrowind in that regard. You may cite other games that do it better, but those games aren't open world games that allow for a virtually infinite amount of choices and possibilities.

Yes, I am more than capable of filling in the blanks and reading between the lines, and making decisions for myself without the game telling me to, but that doesn't mean I just take a "blank book" and imagine some fancy story like you constantly seem to imply. But it is quite welcome when the game isn't telling me what my character is, and instead I tell the game what my character is.

A whole lot of this. This is an uppercut to the face, with words.

To the OP:
Shhhh, we don't use the term "dumbed down" in these forums. This makes the 'Hack n' Slash' Teeny Bopers mad. Instead we prefer the term, "content challenged", aka streamlined.

Tell us about Zork again grandpa.

Oh I misread your post forgive me.
Sorry

with you caps it looks like you are shouting.

Alright now that that is clear. You are fine with the game, no one is bashing you for your choice right? no one is saying you are any lesser than they because you are content with whats been provided, and by no means would it ever be an issue IF what people are asking for EVEN though you are content with what you got, that they get more options

let me make my Real point clear, I don't really Care about -you- per say, one mans trash is another treasure, differing view points and all that jazz, my suggestions weren't tailored specifically to me, I promote options and differing gameplays and don't bash on a hypothetical demographic or critisize their style of play UNLESS the use it as an excuse, much like what I am gathering from your posts, as to why something should not be any other way.

Armor Diversity since all of the 8 types of armor chopped into peice to make it look like there is extensive variety is exceptionally lacking, but you are content so you couldnt complain if you got more.

Weapon Types since Sword Mace Axe and bow aren't really the epitome of diversity and options.

Some control over the Spectrum over our Characters, since H/M/S and a handful of tick boxes half of which aren't really useful don't really offer much for players, But you shouldnt mind right? you're content with whats being offered you couldn't possibly have an issue with Additional Options.

That doing MQ's for the Guild and main storyline would offer actual consequence and difference in the Game world, since you're content with whats being offered now, you couldnt possible have an issue with more right?


Notice something about what I've gone over? doesn't take a decade to do.

You guys could talk the hind legs off a donkey then convince it it was its idea to remove them in the first place.

Even though most of you have no idea what you`re talking about.

Dumbed down means streamlined. They are synonymous. The qualifier is that dumbed down has a negative connotation because people like me that use the term dumbed down instead of streamline enjoy the instant implication to the sentence it adds, that no I don't like streamlining. I want more options, more stats, multiple levels of character development, and at least a 5 page character sheet. I want an invetory that has a 3D interactive paper doll menu screen and requires me to specify where each and every item is stored on my character. If I want to carry 50 potions around my character darn well better be wearing a big ol rucksack!

I want like 10 pages of options in the options menu so I can toggle on and off enough variables to make a casual gamer dropkick his computer.

I understand my desires will never be realised and likely are asking for too much and I am willing to enjoy games even when they are dumbed down, it doesn't make them not fun. And frankly ther parts that are dumbed down to me are the exact changes that many people love so maybe I'm wrong. That doesn't change the fact that as RPG's become more popular they also become more simple.

Example of "dumbed down":

You have 40 unique spells. Each spell does something totally different in game 1. Game 2 is released, the game now has 4 spells.

Example of "streamlined/homogenized":

You have 4 spells with 10 ranks each in game 1. Game 2 is released, the game now has 4 spells that scale with your character's level. Every 10 levels, a new rank is achieved.


The difference is in the streamlined version, you take a mechanic that is cumbersome and improve it. What happens when they dumb something down is basically say "er, Xbox controllers only have 4 colored buttons so we will only give them 4 spells. It isn't for a functionally GOOD reason, they are just dumbing something down. The reason why I use consoles as an example is because this usually is why things are dumbed down. Not because console gamers are inferior, but the input device has certain limitations. Unfortunate, but true.

All of the removal, added handholding and making things more simple, is dumbing down.

Feature removal=/=dumbing down.

Yes, it is.

Its quite simple.

Streamlining is taking something that requires 4 actions to complete and changing it to be completed in 2 actions instead WITHOUT a loss of functionality.

Dumbing down is taking something that requires 4 actions to complete and changing it to a single action and only half as functional.

Magic in Skyrim is the perfect example. They removed nearly all the functionality of spells from the players control. Want to add soul trap to your long range fireball? Sorry can't do it in Skyrim. Loss of functionality. It was dumbed down. If it was streamlined instead they would have kept ALL the functionality of spells from previous games and simply changed the mechanics of them to be easier to use. Example Duel-casting a fireball spell in one hand with a soul trap in another. The soul trap effect could have been added to the fireball on casting. That would have been a streamlined mechanic.

When stuff is actually removed, then it was dumbed down.

Maybe they'll understand you better, I must be talking gibberish.

Falmer is correct...

Wait a minute... intelligent Falmer?

CONSPIRACY.

Exactly. Well said.

Yeah sure it is.....except when say a company creates a new system for how it calculates in game figures like an enemy's health, armor rating, the damage of a weapon,etc and something from the old system isn't applicable or necessary any more so they cut it.

Or when money and time contraints combined with technological restrictions forces the removal of a feature that has been part of a series but new things X,Y,Z are being emphasized and so the money, employee time and programming work goes towards those.

Like I posted...feature removal=/=dumbing down.

See Falmers post above.

1. Bethesda has plenty of money. This isn't like Arena or Daggerfall, Bethesda is one of the big boys now.
2. Bethesda did not have to aim for the 11.11.11 release date. That was the fault of their marketing. They should have and could have spent more time revamping the features they removed.
3. Technological restrictions... I'm... not gonna even go there. If they could do it in Morrowind, they can do it in Skyrim. Unless they're going backwards rather than forwards.

Marriage,

pushing logs in mills, that don't effect anything but the animations are well done.

Pushing Grain grinder, doesnt effect a dern thing, but the animations are well done

Crafting leading into a menu, just a menu. but the animations are well done

Loving detail to carts on horses during the opening scene THE CARTS ACT LIKE CARTS...


so much for time constraints.

No really, SEE Falmers post above. Part of what played into the removal was apparently dislike for how it could interfere with what sort of terrain design they could include. It probably wasn't the ONLY reason but that's besides the point. Your comment on removal always means dumbed down is as poorly thought out as the people who like to spout off that somehow it's people with consoles fault that a game doesn't have "feature x' that they liked.

Point being, what does and does not go into a game's final product is the culmination of all kinds of factors. SOME of that can be a programmer apparently thinking the player base for whatever reason doesn't deserve the sort of complexity a given game system used to have. Though personally I can't really understand the mentality of people who honestly think that people who make games really do sit around going, "Lets make design decision X because we think our player base are morons.' is realistic.

You and Omega can answer the following then


1. Do you work for their accounting department?
2. Are you a Bethesda employ who was present during production and marketing meetings and know who was and wasn't responsible for the release date decision?
3. Are you the above AND are a gaming programmer for Bethesda who knows the advantages and disadvantages of the material you are working with?

...See Falmers post.

This game was definitely "dumbed-down." I enjoyed Morrowind more than I enjoy Skyrim. You could do a lot more things with magic in Morrowind, like create your own spells with whatever effect you wanted. You could literally go anywhere and do anything, there were almost no limitations. That being said, I don't necessarily think it being "dumbed-down" is a bad thing. I just wish they would put some of the magical features back into TES, but also keep it user friendly like it is now. I like the way everything works now as far as leveling and classing. But there were a lot of features removed from TES completely, like being able to create custom spells with AOE damage. So I think finding a good balance is important. You want as many features and as much customization as you can do while still keeping it simple. Otherwise you can have a lot of features that are confusing to use properly.

Actually, yes, people are bashing me when they call the game "dumbed down".

It is an implication that I am "dumber" for preferring the newer mechanics over the older mechanics. The very nature of the term "dumbing down" is an insulting one. It is emotional sensationalism instead of rationale thinking.

Logical thinking: "I prefer the older method to the newer method, and here is why I believe it was better in the past..."

Emotional sensationalism: "They dumbed the game down"

As far as what you've said - no, I would have no problem with "more". That's not what I'm disagreeing with.

What I'm disagreeing with is 1.) the idea that we have less and 2.) the idea that what we have now is somehow worse than before and 3.) the idea that what we have now is somehow less complex than before.

For a specific feature, I also do have a problem with "more" if that "more" would conflict with what we currently have - which I feel Spellmaking would, and have explained why many times. I'm not inherently against getting Spellmaking added to what we already have, but I don't believe that Spellmaking would work with what we currently have, and would need some extra time for Bethesda to implement properly.

I agree that equipment degradation ALONGSIDE Smithing would be "better". But if it's an either / or, I believe Smithing is the proper choice, and far more complex than repairing equipment.

I agree that (properly implemented) Spellmaking ALONGSIDE dual wield casting would be "better". But if it's either / or, I believe dual wielding casting offers far more potential than Spellmaking ever could, and the impact of Spellmaking in previous games is far over exaggerated and sensationalized.

I really don't have an inherent hatred against Attributes. I have an inherent hatred against the ideology that Attributes are the be all / end all of RPG gaming. I do believe that Perks are far deeper and offer more complexity and more character progression options than Attributes ever could. I also believe that Perks are a welcome expansion upon the skill system.

I agree that MORE branching dialogue options and MORE world recognition of our accomplishments would be better, but I believe that what we have is 1.) enough to properly roleplay and 2.) an upgrade over anything we've had in the series before.

I don't disagree that more would be better, I disagree with that we somehow have "less", and what we have is somehow worse than before, and holding the game back. That's what the entire basis of the argument is about.