Interesting. I've only had one freeze in 200 hours of gameplay. When I played New Vegas I had multiple freezes in just 50 hours... worse, out in the wilderness while exploring so I lost hours of gameplay. I had several episodes of corrupt save files, I had several quests that I could not complete because of critical bugs, the graphics were way outdated, etc.

Dawnguard is gonna tell me whether Beth has really decided to go down the road of just adding stuff that looks cool, or actually adding substance.

By the way bethesda game studios are NOT good at world design.

Skyrim's cities were a joke. They didn't put winterhold in the game and destroyed it canonnically out of pure laziness.
Anything close to a town was Solitude and maybe riften, others were either simple keeps or villages.

Bethesda really dissappointed me with skyrim, i must admit.

Same here, skyrim I freeze everyone GREAT once in a while, NV was every other loading screen. The only glitches I had in Skyrim were the backward flying dragons and the flying mammoths.

After a few debates, it's all just down to personal preference. It is also down to the location itself FO3 and NV are set in real locations; FO3 in DC and NV in Vegas. Of course a city is going to have metro tunnels. It would be less believable if it had none or just a few. But hey, FO3 being unbelievable is your opinion, who am I to tell you that what you feel is wrong


Count again. Just because there are three main archetypes, doesn't mean you can't mix things up. You are not shoehorned into a playstyle in Skyrim.

So having a house here and there and putting invisible barriers all over the place is good game design?

Yes Obsidian are great writers, but also smarter game designers. Here's J. Sawyer on weapon balance:

"Here's what I would say about balancing any new weapons with existing weapons: first you find a conceptual place for them, then you stat, test, and iterate to hit that concept.

A weapon's balance is interpreted relative to weapons that are a) like it in function (e.g. a 9mm SMG is like a 10mm SMG) like it in cost/availability (e.g. you find 10mm SMGs around the same time that you find .44 Magnum Revolvers).

When considering the "conceptual place" for the weapon, you should really be answering these questions:

* Why will this weapon be fun to use? The first and most important question.
* What weapons should this weapon be similar to in role/function? This can help you establish statistics that make sense relative to other weapons that are similar.
* What weapons should this weapon be comparable to in overall power? When you answer this, you know what the player is likely choosing between for available weapons at any given point in their development.
* In what situations will I want to use this weapon instead of another weapon of similar power? If there is not a circumstance in which a weapon shines, players likely won't use it.
* In what situations will I want to use other weapons of similar power INSTEAD of this weapon? If a weapon dominates every situation, they will have no motive to use anything else.
* If there are less powerful weapons that are similar to this weapon, in what way will they still be valuable once I get this weapon? In some cases, this may be as simple as mod availability. E.g. Trail Carbines can take scopes; Brush Guns cannot.
* If there are more powerful weapons that are similar to this weapon, in what way will THIS weapon still be valuable when I find the more powerful version? Same idea.

Let's take two weapons that pose challenges: the Combat Shotgun and the Assault Rifle. There are a lot of shotguns and automatic Guns in F:NV, especially with all of the DLCs installed -- but I still think there's room for these two.

Combat Shotgun:
* Why will this weapon be fun to use? High rate of fire shotgun with high DPS, available earlier than the Riot Shotgun. It will also make use of 20 Ga. shells (16 per drum, 4 higher than the Riot), which stop being used in F:NV after the Lever-Action Shotgun.
* What weapons should this weapon be similar to in role/function? Most similar to the Riot Shotgun, distinguished by lower DAM, higher accuracy, and a higher RoF.
* What weapons should this weapon be comparable to in overall power? Tier 4 Guns (Hunting Shotgun, Trail Carbine, Sniper Rifle, 12.7mm Pistol)
* In what situations will I want to use this weapon instead of another weapon of similar power? Close range (closer than the Hunting Shotgun), when volume of fire is more important than raw damage (Trail Carbine, Sniper Rifle), and when reload speed is important (Trail Carbine).
* In what situations will I want to use other weapons of similar power INSTEAD of this weapon? When accuracy or high DAM are important. Slugs can mitigate the DAM and accuracy concerns somewhat, but even the lower-DAM 12.7mm pistol will still have higher accuracy.
* If there are less powerful weapons that are similar to this weapon, in what way will they still be valuable once I get this weapon? The Lever-Action Shotgun still has a higher DAM and accuracy, though the Combat Shotgun destroys it in DPS, RoF, capacity, and reload speed.
* If there are more powerful weapons that are similar to this weapon, in what way will THIS weapon still be valuable when I find the more powerful version? The Combat Shotgun has lower spread, higher magazine capacity, and higher durability than the Riot Shotgun. The Riot Shotgun kills the Combat Shotgun in DAM and DPS.

Assault Rifle:
* Why will this weapon be fun to use? Solid DAM automatic weapon with reasonable accuracy, high RoF, and plenty of ammo availability.
* What weapons should this weapon be similar to in role/function? Most similar to the Assault Carbine.
* What weapons should this weapon be comparable to in overall power? Tier 4 Guns (Hunting Shotgun, Assault Carbine, Trail Carbine, Sniper Rifle, 12.7mm Pistol)
* In what situations will I want to use this weapon instead of another weapon of similar power? Close range, when raw DAM is a concern but accuracy is less of a concern.
* In what situations will I want to use other weapons of similar power INSTEAD of this weapon? Long range, or when armor is more of a concern than total health (cf. Assault Carbine).
* If there are less powerful weapons that are similar to this weapon, in what way will they still be valuable once I get this weapon? The 10mm SMG edges the Assault Rifle out in weight and ammo capacity.
* If there are more powerful weapons that are similar to this weapon, in what way will THIS weapon still be valuable when I find the more powerful version? The Automatic Rifle destroys the Assault Rifle in raw DAM and DPS, but weighs much more and uses rarer, heavier ammo. The Assault Rifle also has a Recoil Compensator mod that brings its accuracy down below even the Assault Carbine.

These are just two approaches to tuning weapons. You could make completely different choices than I did. The point of the exercise is to find a place for the weapons so that their use becomes a choice that the player has to think about."

Obsidian and Quantic Dream are my two favourite game developers, though they both suffer the same problem: very ambitious ideas, often running out of time to finish them.

Alpha Protocol, KOTOR 2, The Nomad Soul, Fahrenheit - I love them all. But I know that if I love a game, I tend to excuse the problems, however glaring.

FO:NV did have better writing, a lot more in the way of consequences (however real they are in the long run doesn't really bother me; it matters that the immediate gaming experience makes sense). As I played it later on from its release, I've never really had the bug problems other people seem to have had.

However, I think I think TES has a larger fanbase that would not be so forgiving of the kinds of errors Obsidian have often found themselves making, whether it was their fault or not.

1) NV didn't have invisible walls "everywhere". Quit exaggerating.
2) Skyrim has them too. Strangely enough, in the exact same place as NV: the edge of the map. If you haven't found them, then it's because you haven't spent as much time exploring Skyrim, which should tell you something about who does open world better.

Obsidian should have done the factions and questlines, with Beth making the gameworld and such.
Like it or not, New Vegas is the better RPG in terms of how the factions interlace.

I'd also like to see a hardcoe mode.

yup i said pretty much the same thing. this should be the end of discussion because its true.

TRy walking over the hills after you leave the first town to bypass the super long route or the cazadores in NV, invisible wall going through HALF THE MAP. Or the invisible barriers preventing you from swimming to Caesars camp, don;t tell me about open world games when you are are just basking in blind ignorance.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yWPnN_wiXMA

look an invisible wall!

OH look ANOTHER INVISIBLE WALL

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3bZ1RJjrFa0&feature=related

Whats this another invisible wall?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3GPWRsKwwM&feature=related

I rest my case

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h6K5OgvHxKk&feature=related

It's called logic. Obsidian did a better job than Bethesda in 1/4th the time. Also, guess who did the qa and bug testing? Bethesda. And in the end, writing is all that matters. I don't remember all the fun games I played or the ones with the most content. I remember The Witcher 1, Mass Effect 1, New Vegas, Fallout 1 and more, only because of their writing, characters and choices and consequences.

What great improvements did Bethesda add in the 5 years they had to make Skyrim? They removed a lot of elements and prettied up the graphics is all they did.

Obsidian, in just over a year made: A main quest playable on 4 sides, Gameplay enhancements in hardcoe mode and Faction and reputation dynamics. Gambling minigames. Better balancing in skills and stats. About 3 times the amount of quests Fallout 3 had, most of which have choices and multiple endings. They made everyone killable. They improved the followers greatly. And they have made some amazing characters and stories.

Bethesda promptly ignored that in their development of Skyrim even though they had more time and resources, just so they can add generic repetitive dungeon number 104.

Thats wrong, New Vegas had invisible walls on alot of the valley walls. When you tried to climb it (wish defiantly looked doable) you were suddenly stopped by an invisible barrier. There are plenty of mods that remove these barriers.
In Skyrim, if you can climb it (not too steep) you can go there. (not including map borders of course)


:Edit:



Keep in mind, Obsidian didn't have to code the game engine. Bethesda had already made the engine for Fallout 3; Obsidian just tweaked a few features.

Remember, there are some people out there who simply can't enjoy a game unless they are led by the bit through a particular story line. To those types of people, freedom to *mix and match* and do what one wills is something difficult for them. The archetypes are the only thing they see because they must be fed.

I'm not saying that i hate bethesda, i just hate what they have done to skyrim.

I loved oblivion, even though it was considered a bit shallow at the time. And actually, it is leagues deeper than their latest game.

This is about the only one I experienced out of your list, but that was down to me not realising there was third floor to the building.

I have, however, encountered a quest that forces you to go for one option out of the three you have. I doubt this was by design because one option took you into a bugged area.

Another problem I've come across in NV was to do with Veronica and the Hidden Valley. During her quest, I would get stopped outside by the BOS. There'd be a little bit of dialogue which always re[censored]ed in me being perforated by gattling lasers. No option let me walk free. I had to fast travel as soon as I was out. Never doing that quest again.


I'm the same with both Oblivion and Skyrim. I've seen very few glitches, probably not even quarter the amount others have. Maybe some long loading here, halted loading there, a fishtailing dragon (never one flying backwards), Paarthurnax flying high above the troat of the world when he's supposed to be sat on his wall. Certainly nothing that has caused me to want to rant on here about it.


This always seems to slip my mind.

I definatly get your point, and to a certain extent I agree. However there are some areas that Skyrim surpasses Oblivion.
It's defiantly not a perfect game, but it's got some good parts to it... now if they start leaning back towards the more RPG like elements it's only going to get better.

However, I still do not want Obsidian doing a main TES game. A spin-off I'd be more than happy to experiance.

Just going to say the same as others. I think that Bethesda makes a better overall game. Ideal would be to get deeper NPC stories.

I am not that willing to slam the quest lines in general. Some, like the Mages, Bards, and Companions were way too short and shallow. Others like the TG, DB, MQ, and civil war were quite good. It's not that Beth can't write good quest lines, it's just that they are hit and miss - with a bit too much miss on some of the major story arcs.

Radiant quests IMHO were a fail. Go kill the bandit ... dull. I can do the same thing with random exploration. Attaching it to a quest didn't add anything to it. However, many of the smaller hand built quests were quite enjoyable.

Been playing six months so I can't say that I didn't get my money's worth. Great effort overall.

I agree.

Yes, i also would want to leave TES series to Bethesda hoping they won't repeat the same mistakes.

I just say that obsidian would have done a better work on Skyrim which is what this thread is all about.

I second that.

You say this as though you can't find invisible barriers in Skyrim too. One of us is definitely ignorant.


Right, but keep in mind that you'll find the same thing in Skyrim. Next time you're in the game, try to find out how far north you can swim. Tell me what you find when you get there. Or how far south you can walk.

It's the same thing.

I don't know. I STILL haven't forgiven them for KOTOR 2. Skyrim is much deeper than most people give it credit for and TES is a unique open world experience. It often seems that people rush or don't pay attention to lots of little details to me. Maybe I'm right on the other hand and I've gotten the deluxe editions of Morrowind, Oblivion and Skyrim with the extra content ( and apparently the crap edition of Daggerfall but that's another story.


I wouldn't mind adding a few ex bioware KOTOR writers to the team but even then make sure they get the open world and lore thing. I'm seeing lots of things I liked in KOTOR like NPC to NPC interaction in Skyrim anyway. Just alittle more repetaitve.

Persoanlly I haven't played fallout but tons of peopel have recomended fallout 3 and told to to not bother with New Vegas but I realize that's 2nd hand.

How the hell do invisible Walls on cliffsides that would break the game if you passed them mean anything compared to that Bethesda took 5 years, compared to just over 1, to...

. Add poorly written, predictable, unrewarding, shallow, linear quests and questlines.

. Create a horde of new game-breaking glitches (Louis Letrush, unfinishable or undoable quests, nirnroot stacking, killer bone piles, disappearing textures, water and whole sections of ground, skill-raising exploits, achievement glitches, kill cam glitches etc.)

. Annoying NPCs and especially children everywhere.

. Poor voice acting.

. No balance, no innovation in combat (or anywhere else), awful unremovable killcams.

. Terrible engine, textures, animations.

. Laggy w/ poor frame rate.

. Often unplayable on PS3.

. No hardcoe mode.

. Terrible voice acting and dialogue.

. No depth anywhere.

. Radiant Quests galore but nothing genuinely fun.

Really, need I continue?

.