Who is satisfied with the perk system

Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:59 am

Not all perks are worth the same. Some are obviously stronger than others. Placing weaker perks (worth less than 1 perk) infront of strong perks (worth more than 1 perk) is a valid way of balancing a skill tree.

Obviously people will rate the value of a perk differently and not all skill trees are of equal worth compare to each other. Example will be the fact that light armor skill is directly superior to heavy armor skill. Nevertheless, the METHOD is a valid one.

But doesn't the method break down when you consider how precious those Perk points can be to your character pre-40?

Dumping Perks into marginally useless skills to get at the important ones feels like you are throwing them away. You need to do it though because key Perks are musts to get your character up-to-speed for his archetype.

Meanwhile, post-40 it doesn't really matter. And that part of the game is where you feel you can get away with spending the Perks on "fine tuning" stuffs that aren't integral to your character. By then I have the "key" Perks for my archetype.

It gives that uneven feel that eats away at you.

Now, I will be honest: I have not played vanilla Skyrim.

I played vanilla Fallout 3 on PS3 as my first Bethesda game, and was in love with the idea but underwhelmed by the execution by Bethesda. Then I found that PC players could mod... bought it for the PC and went to mod school---------- and it was like an entirely new game that felt like it SHOULD have been all from the start.

So I will never buy another Bethesda game for console, and will only play modded out Bethesda games. I don't play vanilla, so "easy" never applies for me. With Wars in Skyrim, Warzones, Deadly Dragons, and a few others...... I routinely get my head handed to me. Even high level. At any time I can run into death, and it feels like it should. I surely can handle anything tossed my way post 50, but it is realistically random in that being sloppy can cost you. I haven't got that impression from the Vanilla Skyrim folks.

Maybe this is skewing my view on the Perks.
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Schel[Anne]FTL
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:11 am

I think it's flawed but it's an awesome step in the right direction. I hope they make great efforts to revamp it in the next game.
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Rob
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:28 am

I like the idea, but they have to refine the whole skill and perks...

especially why can't i learn daedric smithing if i already able to do dragon smithing...? why do i need to ran all the way from dwaren to ebony so that i can learn daedric?

i agree to have perks 1 follow 1, but they should give a little flexibility by learning through short cut on some perk route...
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April D. F
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:57 am

I played vanilla Fallout 3 on PS3 as my first Bethesda game, and was in love with the idea but underwhelmed by the execution by Bethesda. Then I found that PC players could mod... bought it for the PC and went to mod school---------- and it was like an entirely new game that felt like it SHOULD have been all from the start.

So I will never buy another Bethesda game for console, and will only play modded out Bethesda games. I don't play vanilla, so "easy" never applies for me. With Wars in Skyrim, Warzones, Deadly Dragons, and a few others...... I routinely get my head handed to me. Even high level. At any time I can run into death, and it feels like it should. I surely can handle anything tossed my way post 50, but it is realistically random in that being sloppy can cost you. I haven't got that impression from the Vanilla Skyrim folks.

^
I want that increased difficulty as a dlc for my Xbox!
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Becky Palmer
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:15 pm

But doesn't the method break down when you consider how precious those Perk points can be to your character pre-40?

Dumping Perks into marginally useless skills to get at the important ones feels like you are throwing them away. You need to do it though because key Perks are musts to get your character up-to-speed for his archetype.

Meanwhile, post-40 it doesn't really matter. And that part of the game is where you feel you can get away with spending the Perks on "fine tuning" stuffs that aren't integral to your character. By then I have the "key" Perks for my archetype.

I am merely explaining the rational and mathematics behind the method. How well it actually works is highly dependent on external factors outside of perks itself.

It may be, as you said, an "uneven" experience in practise, for your build and playstyle. It may also work fairly well for a different build.

An example will be One-handed/Archery/Heavry Armor warrior. The Key Perks to this archetype are all low requirement perks and the higher ones actually do not contribute much.
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Carlitos Avila
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:48 am

I am merely explaining the rational and mathematics behind the method. How well it actually works is highly dependent on external factors outside of perks itself.

It may be, as you said, an "uneven" experience in practise, for your build and playstyle. It may also work fairly well for a different build.

An example will be One-handed/Archery/Heavry Armor warrior. The Key Perks to this archetype are all low requirement perks and the higher ones actually do not contribute much.

Yes wtflag. I am certainly open to that possibility.
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Samantha Wood
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:08 am

An example will be One-handed/Archery/Heavry Armor warrior. The Key Perks to this archetype are all low requirement perks and the higher ones actually do not contribute much.

Which is a problem with the perks in and of itself.
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Rex Help
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:18 pm

^
I want that increased difficulty as a dlc for my Xbox!

I feel your pain Horhey. As I said, my first Bethesda game was on PS3 because I didn't know any better. I am fortunate enough to have a PC that is good for games, so I have an out to avoid Bethesda's unfinished console games. I would seriously tell you if you can find any way to get it going on PC, it's entirely worth it. Modding can be a pain sometimes. It's not as easy as one-click-and-forget. But it's entirely worth it. Like a whole new game. Not Dark Souls difficult, but so much better than casual-easy-button. :)
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NO suckers In Here
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:17 am

It's a bit of a svck having to choose unnecessary perks for ones you want....meh.
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Georgine Lee
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:16 am

I feel your pain Horhey. As I said, my first Bethesda game was on PS3 because I didn't know any better. I am fortunate enough to have a PC that is good for games, so I have an out to avoid Bethesda's unfinished console games. I would seriously tell you if you can find any way to get it going on PC, it's entirely worth it. Modding can be a pain sometimes. It's not as easy as one-click-and-forget. But it's entirely worth it. Like a whole new game. Not Dark Souls difficult, but so much better than casual-easy-button. :smile:

They did say they plan on releasing free dlcs in between the expansions so maybe modifications like increased difficulty will be one of them.
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Shannon Lockwood
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:07 am

not even close to satisfied.

many are useless and repetative. many don't add to my character build.

generic and lacking in creativity.

as well, perks are used as a substitute for other gameplay mechanics and does it badly.

Well, considering no previous TES game even had perks, even the repetitive ones are more than you had before. Sure, you had little bonuses with some skills once they hit 100 in Oblivion, but I get more added features from entry-level perks than any capstone in a previous TES game.
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Nicola
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:45 am

Well the perk interface sure is pretty, at least its got that going for it.
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Frank Firefly
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 9:15 pm

I like the perk system more than oblivions system of gaining a 'perk' at skill levels of 25, 50 , 75 and 100.
You cannot pick anywhere close to all of the perks so there is clearly character customization. I hated attributes as if I didn't carefully level up the correct skills I wouldn't be able to get my +5 desired attribute, many time I would be forced to spam a skill I didn't normally ever use just in order to get that juicy +5 bonus

As many have said though many perks are useless - all lockpicking and most of pickpocket for instance
I also wish that pickpocket did not count towards leveling up and that the speech skill was removed ... my loot should be worth the same price regardless of if I have individually sold 1000 arrows beforehand or none at all. Hate hate hate the speech skill.
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Lexy Dick
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:47 am

I like the choices that we have at levelup, I just wish we still had a good attribute system and also the perk choices actually matter. I'll give a perfect example, One Handed only has one really good perk for you to choose (The 1st One), the rest of the perks in that skill are horrible.
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Mélida Brunet
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:12 pm

I like the choices that we have at levelup, I just wish we still had a good attribute system and also the perk choices actually matter. I'll give a perfect example, One Handed only has one really good perk for you to choose (The 1st One), the rest of the perks in that skill are horrible.

Exactly, One-Hand should have:

Riposte (Disarm attack)
Counter Attack
Feint (Throw target off balance and move to side or behind an enemy)
Arcing Blow
Follow Up
Weapon Procs
Thrust

etc.

So much opportunity for ACTIVE and REACTIVE abilities that would help shape your character and provide for a more dynamic combat system. Rather than swing or Power Attack only and side stepping...
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Heather Kush
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:09 am

They had something original but they scrapped it for something unoriginal. I liked the class system better. A lot of folks miss it. I am not the only one. The perk system is too simple for my taste. You want a specific complaint? How's this. In prior games, your characters were VERY different in the beginning because of the class/race/birthsign system. Slowly over time, they could grow similar but only if you leveled all of your skills, which is something I never did. So, my high level Oblivion and Morrowind characters look nothing alike. The only way you get high level Oblivion and Morrowind characters who are similar is if you do it on purpose by leveling all your minor skills to 100. Most of my characters in those games did not even use half of their minor skills. So that just did not happen for me. And its not just me, lots of people play that way. With the perk system, your characters are basically all the same in the beginning. You have to wait until maybe 20th level or so before you start noticing real differences between your characters. I liked the system when a mage started out different from a warrior or a thief and you could tailor your character in the beginning and then just play. I don't like having to fret over each perk choice every time I level up during the middle of the game. I'd rather see a tweaked version of the prior class system where you pick your class and then play and never have to make another decision about character creation. That's the antithesis of a perk system, where you have a big decision to make every level up.

So, you want your character to be rich, deep, and diverse from level 1, and wind up bland and generic by endgame? Really?

You're complaining that now level 1 characters start as blank slates, that grow and develop as the game goes on, and become unique later?

Really?

I don't think you understand the concept of "character development." You're not supposed to start out as this awesome character, you're supposed to start fresh and grow into it. Wowsers.
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megan gleeson
 
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Post » Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:04 pm

Perks system works for me.
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Richard Thompson
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 1:01 am

So, you want your character to be rich, deep, and diverse from level 1, and wind up bland and generic by endgame? Really?

You're complaining that now level 1 characters start as blank slates, that grow and develop as the game goes on, and become unique later?

Really?

I don't think you understand the concept of "character development." You're not supposed to start out as this awesome character, you're supposed to start fresh and grow into it. Wowsers.

To an extent. I don't think everyone should start out as generic as they are. If I want to play an Assassin, I should have the BARE minimum at level 1 that makes me feel like an Assassin. As I level, I should gain more and more abilities that define this. It should branch off and really drill down, should I be a Stealthy Assassin? Should I be a Brigand and fight straight up? Should I deal in Poisons? Should I deal with Ranged? It should be highly specialized, which currently it is not. I advocate the entire model shifting. Right now, you start off as generic as possible and end up more or less where you should be STARTING from. We should start where we end up currently, and be WAYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY more specialized than currently. It isn't specialized enough to really warrant multiple play-throughs. What separates a Warrior from a Mage shouldn't just be the Warrior deals more damage with a Sword and a Mage has a larger pool of Magicka...There are only minute differences and the only TRUE difference in "classes" in terms of gameplay (not whatever nerdy story you have come up with) are the efficiency differences. We need way more active and reactive abilities/spells.
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Nomee
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 5:35 am

Perks system works for me.

yes, it 'works.'

but, how do you deal with and what is your rationale for the very obvious flaws and shortcomings it has?
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Kill Bill
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:56 am

If I have a beef with the Perk system of Skyrim it's this:

Since it has replaced attributes and "class" choices-- the balance of your game is uneven.

Early on, since you have not selected a "class" archetype, you are basically a vanilla nobody. For example, let's say you want to play a Mage. You aren't any better at mage-ing than the guy next to you that wants to play a Barbarian, or the guy playing a Hunter. And neither are they better warriors or archers than you as a mage. Since the "class" effect of your choice doesn't come into effect until you can buy Perks....

You'll have to spend Perk points to start fleshing your character into the archetype you desire. And since that requires often at minimum 3 Perk trees, if not 5.... it can take you well into your 40s before your character FEELS authentic.

And by that time, the game isn't difficult anymore. It's become trivial, and at that point the Perks and archetype etc aren't important.

So by the time I can really feel like the Battle Mage I wanted...... I could just be soloing around with 1 button on my fire spell. :/

With "class" choices to begin a game, or with "specialization" choices in attributes/skills (like Oblivion), it gave you the feeling of your class early, and throughout the game. If you were playing a Barbarian, it felt like a Barbarian right from the get go. Like most standard RPGs, you chose a class and he would excel in the things he should excel in. Even from the start, so you were ROLE PLAYING the character from GO.

That is what I don't like about the Skyrim Perk system.

Also, I feel throttled into ONLY advancing the skills relating to the Perks I will need for my archetype. Say if I am a Warrior, I better not be advancing my Smithing, Alchemy, Enchanting, Pickpocketing etc... because those will level me up and now encounters with mobs will be tougher. And I won't have the necessary Perks (and their requirement skill levels) in my 1-handed, or Block, or Armor... It can make the game unbearably difficult if you didn't grasp that concept early. So you end up ignoring Smithing let's say... and find that later to level it up you end up having to spend Perk points on lower level armors (such as Dwarven or Elven) that you aren't going to be using at your level anymore, just to get to the armor you will use. Uneven, and unintuitive.

--------------

Now, the higher game isn't so bad for us PC users. I use mods such as Wars In Skyrim, Warzones, DeadlyDragons, double arrow damage, etc to make the game more realistically difficult. There are even mods that tune the level adjuster for mobs so that they don't cap out too low for you to find any challenge post 40.

But this doesn't defend or help the console player, or the PC player that doesn't want to become well-versed in Moddery usage.

Agree 100%. Your character should feel unique from the beginning.

The prior class-based system had some flaws, since no one really wants to have to worry about how much they are using their minor skills to get +5 to three attributes. But that could have been solved without scrapping the whole system. Heck, the modders have already solved that problem for Oblivion. Their are a variety of solutions that would work.

A class-based system requires some forethought on character creation but after that you could just play and not have to worry about which "perk" to pick every level up. Your character was distinct from the beginning, you did not have to wait to level 40 to feel like you were a "mage" a "warrior" or whatever you wanted to be.

As far as the argument that some have made that in Oblivion or Morrowind every character was basically the same by the end of the game, that is only true if you leveled EVERY minor skill to 100, which very few people do. If you are playing a mage archtype in a class-based system who does not use weapon and armor skills, your character will look very different by the end of the game than a warrior archtype who uses no magic skills.

As for the argument that the system needs to be simple enough to have mass appeal, Bethesda could have made a class system simple to use for casual players by reducing the number of pre-set classes down to three and asking each player at start up if they preferred stealth, magic or combat as their primary focus. That's what they do in Kingdom Hearts, which is a PS2 game with mass appeal. It is a simple enough system to appeal to the masses who complained that Oblivion's character creation process was too complicated.

Then they have a toggle option in the Options menu to allow custom character creation. They keep that secret so only people who knew where to look would find it. If you toggle that, you get a fourth option at start up of creating your own class, and you get a complex menu to do that. Then once you have picked the class, you just play. Level-ups happen automatically, with no need for the player to do anything. Perks are associated with your level in a particular skill.

The only decisions you should have to make once you start playing are the ones your in-game character makes. That's immersive.
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neil slattery
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:07 am

They suffice for me, but they could still use some well-needed improvement. My main problem with the perk system is that there is a bit too much emphasis on perks.

For example, a hypothetically fully-perked Swordsman with only 40 One-Handed does mroe damage than a perkless Swordsman with 100 One-Handed. I wish there was more emphasis on raising the skill than picking perks. I think that the damage augmentation skills for the warrior branch should have been kept at 50%, the other 50% being achieved once you maxed out the skill.

Other than that, some perks were just plain stupid. For example: Lockpickin.

But the main thing I would change is less emphasis on damage augmenters. They could be substituted with better and cooler perks.
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Cameron Garrod
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 3:53 am

conniving-

many of the flaws of the system are due to the elimination of attributes.

attributes, perks and skills are 3 very separate qualities. for reasons i won't even get into here, beth has gimped all 3 with the approach they decided on.
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Je suis
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 12:06 pm

So, you want your character to be rich, deep, and diverse from level 1, and wind up bland and generic by endgame? Really?

Your Oblivion/Morrowind characters were only bland by endgame if you choose to make them that way by leveling every minor skill to 100. Not everyone did that. Most roleplayers do not do that.

I don't think you understand the concept of "character development." You're not supposed to start out as this awesome character, you're supposed to start fresh and grow into it. Wowsers.

I want my character to start out unique, not "awesome." Then, depending on how the character fares, I can see how the choices I made during character creation play out in the game world. The character may become "awesome" or it may not, depending on the choices I made at character creation and how I play the character.
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Dalton Greynolds
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:49 am

So, you want your character to be rich, deep, and diverse from level 1, and wind up bland and generic by endgame? Really?

yes, characters in a lore-rich universe such as TES should be rich and deep and diverse from the start. it's inherent differences that are then fleshed out as you, um, build you character. "bland and generic" would be the builder's fault.

I don't think you understand the concept of "character development." You're not supposed to start out as this awesome character, you're supposed to start fresh and grow into it. Wowsers.

i think it's you who doesn't get it. it has nothing to do with being "awesome" or starting out as an uber-god. we shouldn't go into it with this 'blank slate' idea. THAT'S not it, at all.

edit: as well, there's nothing like playing this game and finally becoming who i wanted to develop at a point so late in the game, where it doesn't even matter anymore. but, that involves other issues.
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Roisan Sweeney
 
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Post » Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:45 am

Exactly, One-Hand should have:

Riposte (Disarm attack)
Counter Attack
Feint (Throw target off balance and move to side or behind an enemy)
Arcing Blow
Follow Up
Weapon Procs
Thrust

etc.

So much opportunity for ACTIVE and REACTIVE abilities that would help shape your character and provide for a more dynamic combat system. Rather than swing or Power Attack only and side stepping...

These are the types of perks that should replace Armsman. The shield bash really made using a shield more fun in Skyrim than it was in prior games. These types of perks would make swordfighting much more dynamic and fun.
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Ysabelle
 
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