Bethesda just gave us the stars to bend to our will, apparently the dragonborn can even do that. I hate the streamlining like its difficult to choose a sign of birth, right.

It is a step in the right direction but Beth still has a lot of work to do with the system.

It is what it is

Eh... I would have made it different... but since Im a game player and not a game creator I'm satisfied with it.

You mean like in the destruction tree where you can get perks that turn people into ash piles or send enemies running away like living torches? Or in the melee perks where you can decapitate opponents, or in...

There are some interesting perks IMO:
1/2-handed: They have weapon specific perks and modifications to powerattacks in addition to basic weapon damage.

Heavy Armor: In addition to increase AR there are less stagger, more unarmed damage, less falling damage and removal of movement and weight penalties. Light armor have a increased stamina regen perk and removal of the movement penalty.

Destruction have the 3 modifications to the elemental spells(deep freeze etc.) and Impact which makes dual charging more useful.

Restoration: Recovery gives increased magica regen, Avoid Death gives a daily emergency heal, Necromage make your spells more powerful against undead, respite and regeneration increase the effectiveness of healing spells and ward absorb makes wards more useful.

Archery: stegger possibility, increased speed with drawn bow, slow motion zoom and draw bow faster.

Enchanting: Soul siphon is pretty cool. When you kill a beast with your weapon it get a small recharge.

Illusion: The Master of the Mind allows you to manipulate undead, atomatons and daedra.

These are just some of the perks that are not simple X% more damage or cost reduction. I simply do not see how the perks do not define your character.

Problem was that attributes was pretty broken in Oblivion, to make an strong character you had to select major skill carefully and level mish skills to get 3x or better on attribute increases.
Morrowind and Daggerfall had the same issues however they had more skills and unlimited training making it easier to get 5x they was also very easy at high level unlike Oblivion.

Now you could automate attribute gain, say +1 in strength for every 2 strength based skill increase however this would require you to raise multiple strength based skills.
Could work but would counter the focusing on some skill many want, the other option would be using perk point to raise attributes like in Fallout.

I was also shocked then I heard they was going away, however playing the game I find I miss separate pants way more. Think their only real impact is making the races more unique.

If I came across Skyrim's perk system lying on the side of the road and burning, I would start looking for some gasoline...

Actually Daggerfall had a system which gave yu 4-6 attribute points to destribute as you wished each level. They should never have changed to the skill increase = attribute increase IMO.

I like it

Perks were okay when they supplemented a skill/character customisation system.

But on their own as your only means of shaping yourself alongside deciding which coloured bar gets longer?

...not enough!

That worked fine in Morrowind where you had oodles of skills to choose from.
But in Oblivion a lot of skills were removed for no good reason, so we ended up with only three skills per attribute.
This, coupled with the horrible level scaling, ensured that there was practically no way to just level up naturally.
You had to keep track of skill increases.

But I agree that the Daggerfall character creation + levelling system was a great one as well.
I miss being able to choose advantages and disadvantages.

IMO Daggerfalls attributes and class traits + Skyrims perks + Morrowind/Oblivion Birthsigns would be better than any of the systems. But I would prefer if they added an attribute system akin to Fallout, it just seems better at the core than the ES version.

What is fantastic about the Fallout system is that you choose it all before the game begins, and apart from a few rare attribute boosters such as bobbleheads (or the medical clinic in New Vegas) it was set for the rest of the game.
So if you started out with 1 for intelligence, you could never get 9, you could raise it by 1 at the most.
This meant that for the entire game the character you created as stupid, remained stupid.

When playing New Vegas once for a laugh with a character with low intelligence the game provided some nice surprises.
Nothing major, mostly just flavour, but it was there.
I particularly remember one quest where on my regular characters the dialogue option would be: ''My interest in this place is scientific."
I dont think I ever laughed so hard in a recent game as when I realised that on my dumb-as-dirt character this option had changed to: "I is scientist".

This is something that I would love to see in a TES game.
Choices you make at the beginning having an impact throughout the entire game.

Not enough. Too many are just % more of something, whereas some of them are too op (stealth, enchanting, archery). I can count on fingers the perks that i really like and getting to them is a road full of [censored]traps.

Indeed. With a Fallout-ish attribute system you could have a base value based on your race and gender and lest say you get 5 or so points to distribute. After this you only had a few ways of increasing them such as doing quests or maybe things like a 1+ because you have trained with the Companions or something.

Example:
Nord base stats:
Strength: 6
Intelligence: 4
Willpower: 4
Speed: 5
Agility: 5
Endurance: 6
Personality: 4
Luck: 5

Stats after adding "class"(lets say Crusader) bonuses:
Strength: 7
Intelligence: 6
Willpower: 5
Speed: 5
Agility: 5
Endurance: 7
Personality: 4
Luck: 5

Class features/traits:
Crusaders Training: Bonus to melee damage and a slight cost reduction in restoration.
Crusaders Resilience: Increased resistance against undead.

Racial Bonus:
Nord Blood: Frost Resistance 50%
Other bonuses:
Companions Training: +1 to strength

Then upon leveling up you could chose perks ala Skyrim. This is how I see a much more ideal system.

I think the perk system is overall a great idea and it works very well, leveling-wise. But the devil is in the detail, and I too think many perks are simply uninspired and detrimental to the whole idea of Elder Scrolls. most notably in the light armor, for example. First perk adds armor value, and can be taken 5 times, that's fine it's a good first perk. Then the next one, now adds armor value if you wear all light armor. Okay, so I′m being forced into only light armor, in order to get the same benefit as the first perk. So I can't wear a Diadem if I use alot of spells, I can′t mix and match as i would like to complement my (unique) build. I'm being put in line, I have to.

Then the next perk gets even worse. Now I must use the same set of armor. So I am forced to wear the silly dragonarmor helmet, if I want dragon armor. I can't mix and match light armor as I want for aesthetic reasons, I am being told how to play, I must play like everyone else, and look like everyone else. Downloading mods only makes this problem more clear, as mixing and matching all these new cool armours is a real joy . And the benefit I get from the perk is the same as the first perk in the tree...

Very uninspired perktree, and I think there are more of the same to be found in the other trees.

Yes, the S.P.E.C.I.A.L system and Daggerfall character creation system both have interesting mechanics to create depth and strategy in character generation, however, only for a certain style of games. SPECIAL works much better in Fallout 1 and 2 than in Fallout 3 and NV where the character's success was dependant on these stats, where in Fallout 3 the player's reflexes, coordination and skill overrides the character's stats. Try hitting something beyond the range of your weapon with a perception 1 character in Fallout 2, now take the same character in Fallout 3 and pick up a Hunting Rifle and you will always hit what you are aiming at, regardless of your character's stats.

Daggerfall suffered from the same mechanics problem, you had lots of different stats and abilities to tune your character, but when it came down to actually doing what you do most of in the game, they had very little impact, compared to the player's own skill at timing their attacks, dodge and aim with their mouse.

I imagine that if I had designed the system in Daggerfall I would have been quite proud of it at the time, but having seen how computer games developed and looking back at it when developing the system for Skyrim I would have questioned what I was thinking when I implemented all those things which contributed very little to the actual game and I would look to a new system where the stats of the character were much more closely related to the core mechanics of the game.

Employing strategy rpg-mechanics to an action-rpg game does not translate well, all of these character attributes, choices and skills would be perfect for a strategy rpg, but TES is not, and never has been a strategy-rpg.

I not only dislike that I will have to spend a perk point on a pre-requisite that I may not want, but the perks make you commit to whatever skills you spend perks on. If my character puts in the time and effort, why can't they be a master of everything? Why put a limit on what a character can be good at?

I'd rather see the series go back to having stats and the skills give you "perks" automatically, like they did in the past.

I think the perk system is an improvement on the previous levelling systems (Morrowind and Oblivion), since you now will be specializing in some areas and not just doing everything. There might be room for improvement (it feels wrong, that with lockpick at lvl 62 my character wasn't better at lockpicking than in the beginning of the game), but now you don't play to optimize obscour multipliers, but to do what you like in the game.

I don't think attributes themselves were that important in earlier games (it's just a stat), and If you don't think they are appropriate perks, then call them something different. The principle of having both perks and skills bonuses might be good, but in Fallout, by the time you reached lvl20, you were starting to put your points in skills, you didn't really use, because the ones you used was already maxed out. So if that style was used, I would want less skillspoints given.

I don't understand, why some say, that with Skyrims skillsystem, you level up to quick. My two-handed fighter maxed his first skill (twwo-handed) at lvl37 and smithing at lvl41, eventhough he mined everything he saw and used it for smithing (he didn't buy ore og ingots, and he didn't spam iron daggers though), so the speed of the levelling seems fine to me.

Perks belong in Fallout, not in TES.

I know that previous TES games had perks but those perks were not primary. They were secondary to you leveling up your major skills, that were ditched in Skyrim for the crappy Fallout Perk system.

They need to go back to major and minor skills and do away with this Fallout crap, it doesn't belong in TES.

What? If with "attributes" you mean "stats" it's the other way around. Stats are more realistic. If I am a mage I don't need to be Hercules. And the perks can be easily substituted with weapons and accessories abilities. That one can choose depending on the situation. Which leads to another issue: I simply can't stand the thousands of effects in potions, weapons and accessories. All with many different percentages of strength. What's the point of it. Just give me a fixed number of weapons and let me upgrade them with special items and/or skills. In a fixed way.

IMHO all the part regarding perks/weapons/accessories/potions and last but not least the fighting should be completely rewritten in the Elder Scrolls games. Especially the fighting. Fallout at least has the V.A.T.S., in Skyrim I often end up slicing mosquitos with my battle axe. It's an RPG, give us at least a lock mechanism for melee fights!! And an idea about how strong the enemies are. Oh, without forgetting to make it a real third person view game. First person view in a "hack 'n slash" RPG is simply atrocious.

Fixing those it could really be the king of RPGs. As it is now it's an 8-9/10 the most. Very cool game, but not a GOTY for me.

They are good enough I suppose. I would have liked to see more of the types like the disintegrate/deep freeze perks and the extra pockets perk and kinds like that instead of mostly perks that make the skills a little better by some percentage.

This is so not a bug report.

It has been moved in General discussion indeed..