Yeah, but turning a damned game into a child's toy isn't fun either. Elder Scrolls went from being an immersive RPG to being a casual pick-up-and-play game.

don't see it as a child's toy more than oblivion was. Maybe morrowind and the previous titles would have been more repellant but I'm sure kids have and could play oblivion. Game never seemed complicated to me, but perhaps it is just me who thinks that.

Okay, I am going to say this for the last time. Since when was I saying "make everything exactly the [censored] same as it was in Oblivion." I did not. All I was saying is that they should have made a class system to set parameters on what you are going to be focusing on.

???????????? What are you talking about? You just said they were turning the series into a child's toy and kept using oblivion as your example of things, such as classes, that would make it less mainstream and not a child's toy. I just don't understand you.

He is obviously insane.

classes only really affected leveling in oblivion and morrowind, in daggerfall they actually had more dnd oriented system. in that mages couldn't wear armors and what not.

I said keeping the classes FROM oblivion, not the same class system itself. All i said was the other TES games HAD a system. Even tho in oblivion it was broken, it should not have been discarded.

Still doesn't make sense in context to the previous statement about the series becoming a mainstream and a child's toy. You just completely changed the subject.

No, they shouldnt.

Obviously, the whole class system has and probably always will be a staple in pure RPGs. But Skyrim isnt just a RPG, its an action-adventure game too. I am glad they changed to something to mix it up a bit from all the other clones.

Personally, classes in games have been getting redundant, and I dont like having a game LIMIT what skills I can do. Especially before even starting the game, and when I can CHOOSE what I want to be by doing those skills during the game that I want to characterize as my "class", not that I feel the need to label what I am anyway.

Bottom line, If a traditional class system comes back in the next installment, then so be it. But I'm sure not many people are missing out on anything now that they havent seen before.

I play a swordmage rather easily. I use a sword, and magic. Boom, your initial point of "extreme effort" has been debunked.

Whatever. The further this game goes along the path its going, the less content its gonna have. Its a slippery slope to a point of no return. Once it is past that point, it can't even be considered an RPG but an action-adventure game.

hopefully Beth isn't going to go in the wrong direction, but removing labels for classes isn't something I think is pushing them towards it. Sure they should add more of the things back that were removed and perhaps add more restrictions based on actions but the label for classes isn't something I see as necessary. It can be in the next one and I would be fine with it and if it wasn't I would be equally fine.

I think i just centered my rage of them mainstreaming the game on one topic. I think its the whole thought process of Bethesda thats bothering me. From the bustling cities of morrowind, we now have Morthal and Dawnstar; pathetic excuses of cites. They barely qualify as a small town. It just feels that instead of fixing something, they just decide to cut it out like spears, medium armor, spell making, acrobatics, hand to hand, etc. Also the guilds in Skyrim were pretty weak with a fairly short story.

What is a mage? Is it seeing a little box on your character sheet that says "Class: Mage" or is it using magic and casting spells to solve problems?

What is a warrior? Is it seeing a little box on a character sheet that says "Class: Warrior" or is it wearing armor and using weapons to crush your enemies, seeing them driven before you, and hearing the lamentation of their women?

What is a thief? Is it hitting the TAB key, flipping to a page in the menu, and seeing something that says "Class: Thief", or is it using stealth and sneakiness to steal things, whether from behind locked doors or from their very pockets?

What is a battlemage? Is it looking at a page in the menu and seeing "Class: Battlemage", or is it wearing armor, wielding weapons and casting spells in battle?

What is an illusionist/thief? Is it looking at the character sheet and seeing "Class: Illusionist/thief" or whatever the equivalent in Oblivion was, or is it casting Illusion spells for misdirection, and casting Muffle and Invisibility so that you can sneak past guards and steal things?


Which is it?

But with classes it's all or nothing. If you only allocate two perks or even ten toward warrior perks, well, that's only a small fraction of your lifetime supply of perks. You've still got all those future perks to allocate toward mage perks. In Oblivion, you're committed to the Warrior class 100% in terms of class-related benefits.

I do agree with those points. Would be nice to see the return of some of those things, especially some big cities. Even the large cities in skyrim seemed small to me.

Personally I do not miss the label.

I can still play as the archetype I want and I can still mix and match skills like I want to achieve those archetypes. The only major difference is that now we get to improve our abilities with the skills we chose bayond just the skill number itself, offering more meaningful limitations.

Oh, wow. This is priceless. So you aren't a warrior unless you have a little box on your character sheet telling you that you're a warrior? Holy [censored] hell, that's just about the most absurd thing I've heard around here, and I've heard some absurd statements. If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, THEN IT'S A MOTHER-[censored] DUCK, BUDDY. And if it wears armor like a warrior and swings a weapon like a warrior and takes perks like a warrior, then it's a mother-[censored] warrior. Labels are irrelevant.

If a character walks around wearing robes and casting spells and summoning Daedra and shooting fireballs and healing himself magically and enchanting things and wielding staffs that shoot lighting and summoning blizzards and casting spells that make themselves invisible with impenetrable skin, but there's a little box in the UI that says CLASS: WARRIOR - well, is that character a mage or a warrior?

I don't see how classes are not still in the game. I don't need a menu with a box in it saying "Class - Warrior" to know that character is a warrior. His level 90 One-Handed Skill, 85 Blocking Skill, and 80 Heavy armor with perks invested into all three of those trees is what makes him a warrior.

As stated earlier in this thread, Skyrim has a better class system than MW or OB did. In older games it truly did not matter what you picked. You could get 100 in all of the skills and attributes and the bonuses that came with them, becoming a master of everything. In Skyrim however, you have to think and plan ahead of what you want that character to be. You only get 80 perks to use out of 251 total, and only get to chose Health, Stamina, or Magicka 80 times, not til they all reach their set maximum.

In some other threads, people seemed too concerned with what their character's choices and starting stats were, when they were created. In Skyrim, you don't stop choosing and creating til you hit the level cap.

I am actually gonna contradict myself here, but I think its literally not the label bothering me, but the missing skills/other skills that should have been in that game to expand my playstyle

I might be wrong on this one, but isn't that sort of what the perks do? To seperate from specialized and non-specialized skills?

What I meant was that acrobatics, h2h, and said skills should have been in the game to give more variety. Obviously acrobatics was broken as hell in Oblivion, but i still would like to see perks that allow me to increase my jump heigh, let me do backflips, paralyze someone with a punch, etc

I can only assume he's about to lament the removal of Athletics and Acrobatics and the like.

No, no. I must have said it wrong. They removed mysticism, h2h, acrobatics didnt have spears etc, etc, etc. THATS what i feel limited my play style, no a petty label saying "warrior"

No, those skills were worthless. But i can't truly be a monk without hand to hand and some back flips.