I think that's part of the issue at hand though- what is 'proper' roleplay? We can't define it for everyone, it's different for each person. Which is why the mechanics in the TES games are so loose- so you can powergame, meta game, 'naturally progress', not progress at all...the choices is yours.

The problem comes when people are NOT used to this playstyle, and are searching for restrictions that aren't there, and expect the developers to change it to suit the playstyle THEY feel comfortable with. It's not going to happen.

That's basically my point, you have the options to create whatever experience you like.

There is nothing wrong with that.

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Mods must be busy with the Wiki threads, how is this at 277 already?

It is an impossible task to create a system that is balanced for the role player while remaining viable for the master of all trades. Smithing, for instance, is not overpowered. But if you combine smithing with enchanting with sneak, the results are pretty clear. Sneak by itself allows me to one shot almost anybody, but I can be in a tough place after that first kill. If I master everything then yes, I am god-like. What I like about TES games is that I can role play a character without mastering everything and still succeed.

I absolutely love and adore the original Zelda, and I do agree with you, those early games were the first to introduce the concept of "RPG" to people.

But...they're not RPG's. They're stat games. There's a difference. I know what the developers call them. I know what the fans call them. But when the character, the story, and the events are all prewritten...what are you roleplaying? You're not. You're just picking what weapons and armor the character is going to use. That's not roleplay. Still darn good games though.

I think that's the biggest issue- people assume they know what roleplaying is from playing these games, and it's not what ALL rpg's are. Not by half.

But what character progression is there in JRPGs? They assign you your characters, you have no choice. In that sense, Zelda is an RPG because the character progresses in strength and there are numbers (hearts and magic meter) to measure this. There's no character freedom with JRPGs, and that's the issue, imo. They could be linear if they wanted to be, but let me make the character and their story.

At any rate, hell yeah Skyrim is a bad RPG. I think the cause is that....well for one there's no consequences for your actions; the world doesn't reflect your character AT ALL. And two, you're kinda railroaded on the perk trees. If two characters use two-handed? They'll feel exactly the same; there's no point where they'll diverge and feel different unless you specifically limit yourself from taking all the good perks on one of them, which is unwise as this game's difficulty almost demands you take them. Note, they do diverge, yes, but has anyone tried Warhammers vs. Axes vs. Swords? I can say from experience that the bleed on axes is a joke and the Warhammers felt like the best. I want the characters to PLAY different, not "this one kills enemies faster because he uses hammers and the other one doesn't."

Amen.

I remember DMing massive sessions (12 hour plus) and my players still not wanting to end; and there wasn't even a single die roll. It was all RP.

Today's computer RPG gamer? "Click click click, wait what am I supposed to be doing? Where is the wiki?"

I completely agree that a similar problem has existed in previous TES games. At least it's a problem from my point of view but clearly others don't seem to mind.

Infact it was probably even worse in Morrowind. This was the first TES game I played, I had no idea what I was doing or how to build a character and simply from wandering around in a disorganised fashion I found I had outlevelled the game with more than half the main quest still to complete. For Oblivion I quickly adopted the OOO mod which added a lot of options which I would have liked to have seen as standard options for Skyrim.

RPG's are, at their core, about roleplaying and story. RPG stands for Role Playing Game. The term originated with Dungeons & Dragons in the early 1970's, when players and a referee (later called a Dungeon Master or a Game Master) would gather. The players would roll dice to create the stastics of their character, but the term "role" has nothing to do with stats, or even with the rolling of dice. It refers to assuming the role of a character, much as an actor does in a play or in a movie. When you play a pencil-and-paper RPG you can spend whole evenings doing nothing with the dice at all, or very little, by simply role playing conversations in town, going over maps and plans with fellow players, interacting with characters in the game world (acted out by the referee), etc.

The early fixation on statistics was more a reflection of the limitation of early consoles and computers with regards their abilities to portray a complex RPG world, rather than a definition of what an RPG was or should be. In the 80's and 90's and 2000's it simply wasn't possible to make a game even 1% as potentially complex as an RPG played with pencil & paper, because the only limit to a pencil-and-paper RPG is the scope of the players' and GM's imagination. We're still, in 2012, a long way from matching that, but slowly steps are being taken in that direction, and the ES series is a good example of this.

But do not think RPG's are definied by statistics and number-crunching. While such things are useful for resolving whether or not events succeed (or how they succeed), they are a distant second -- at best -- to the importance and joy of taking on a role and playing it out in a make-believe game world.

Weapon diversity is one thing, but wouldn't two characters that specialized in Two-Handed play the same?

Well, lets not go into the fact that you can choose to specialize in Conjuration/Heavy Armor/Light Armor/Alchemy or Resto/ and you can choose to stack health or stamina, but in principle they really should feel the same.

Provided you are leaning on one school of combat, why wouldn't they feel the same?

You want diversity in combat options for weapons, so would I, but even with extra attacks they are going to feel the same because you specialized in that combat school.

At what point was I comparing Fallout to TES? I used that situation as an example of how the devs being phobic of limitations can actually work against you. Characters stop feeling unique when there's enough perk slots to get EVERY good perk in the game. The situation in Skyrim isn't exactly the same, but there are similarities. The perk trees don't diverge, but rather they're linear. Every bow-using character is going to feel the same because it's simply counter-productive to limit yourself as far as bow skill goes; the 100 perks alone encourage you to grab every perk on a given tree.

Of course those three feel different: they use completely different skills.
My point was, how different does a Thief that uses illusion or a thief that uses conjuration feel from a pure thief? Different, sure, but not different enough that it's worth making a new Conjuration-Thief character over, imo. That's the problem: there's three classes and then everything in between feels too familiar. Why? Because perk trees don't truly diverge; they're completely linear and those that ARE optional are too key to the skill tree to ignore OR you're nerfing yourself by NOT taking it.

Woah, woah woah. Let's step back a moment:

"At any rate, hell yeah Skyrim is a bad RPG. I think the cause is that....well for one there's no consequences for your actions; the world doesn't reflect your character AT ALL"- linI've had TONS of interaction with the people and the game world. I won't give specifics because I don't want to ruin questlines, but there is a quest in Whiterun that actually changes certain things in town? Many people approach me and talk to me about the dragons and being dragonborn. I do specific quests in towns and people comment on them. I receive 'gifts' from certain townsfolk after doing things for them, NOT as quest rewards, but after interactions later.

I know there are some silly things in the game, like becoming head of the Companions and people still telling you to fetch mead, but to discount EVERYTHING in the game over some elements is not fair and not warranted.

If two characters use two-handed? They'll feel exactly the same; there's no point where they'll diverge and feel different unless you specifically limit yourself from taking all the good perks on one of them, which is unwise as this game's difficulty almost demands you take them. Note, they do diverge, yes, but has anyone tried Warhammers vs. Axes vs. Swords? I can say from experience that the bleed on axes is a joke and the Warhammers felt like the best. I want the characters to PLAY different, not "this one kills enemies faster because he uses hammers and the other one doesn't.- Ok, first of all, if you choose the exact same perks on two different characters...what did you expect? You created the same character! Second, combat is NOT a focal point of this series, the emphasis is on story and roleplay and interaction with the world. Different weapons have different stats and look cool. That's about it. That's how TES has always been, pretty much. This is not a medieval fighting game.

This I can get behind, but it has nothing to do with "self gimping".

Isn't that exactly how Skyrim works, though? The story is prewritten with little to no choice and even less consequences, and the game - mechanically - revolves around your choice of combat methods. The difference is, that you have tons random distractions at the side of the story (with almost as few consequences and choices as the storyline), and that stats are not as important as they could be.

o.O

Oh, well then, I'm gonna have to go make a conjuration thief. 'Cause that just sounds awesome.

I can understand what you're saying though, a little diversity would be nice.

I agree that my definition for "proper roleplaying" obviously doesn't apply to everyone and it was silly of me to even have that phrase in my post. Perhaps I should have said something along the lines of I would "expect" the smithing skill to progress more quickly if smithed more challenging items. I believe that playing with this [reasonable for me] expectation shouldn't be penalized. Then again that's what buying the PC version & mods are for .....

In terms of game design I would still prefer a system that I didn't have to worry about interactions with the game system and making sure that I don't break my own character. It's something that I'm used to having to worry about with TES but it would be nice [for me] if you couldn't break your character in such a straight-forward manner therefore I could play anything I wanted without worrying.

You talk as if I've spoken blasphemy.
Trust me, it's more than possible to make ONE combat skill have multiple ways of playing it, but Bethesda, for some reason, has never given it a try.

But ok, let's make it even more basic: how do One-handed and two handed feel different? They don't really, imo. One deals heavy damage, one has better blocking ability and (dual-wielding) another has good damage output but no defense.
When I say I want them to PLAY different, I mean....take for example the two-handed perk that grants AOE damage to your sideways power attacks. That to me is a good perk: it redefines the way I play the game. Whereas a one-handed character is in trouble when he's surrounded, now my two-handed character is actually at his prime when he's surrounded. That makes them feel different, that gives me a moment where I think "if only I was playing my Nord instead of my Imperial, this would be easy!" and THAT gives the game diversity and replay value.
Sadly, that perk and the one to increase the speed of dual-wielded attacks? Those are the only two that truly differentiate one-handed and two-handed, imo.

Whatever.

There are very simple ways of making the game do whatever you want and there are simple ways of making a character play the way you apparently want.
If you're to stuborn or closed minded to adapt your playing style to fit the gane that Bathesda made...you just wasted $60.

Too bad for you. There's a great game waiting for you.

Sometimes one just has to change the way they look at things.

A simple solution to your "problem" keeps getting thrown to you, and your stuborness stands in the way.

The world is full of people like you. Always searching for the negative, always complaining, never satisfied. Maybe....just maybe...the problem is you. People like you entertain me in the forums when I'm bored.

Have fun whining in the forums. I'm going back to the game.

Hmm... have you tried Shield Charge?

Awesome.

I think the difference, and versatility, between 1H'd and 2H'd is miles apart, but 2H'd could defnitely use a few more options because of the missing hand you would normally have.

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you have? instead of have you?

What am I? Borat?

It doesn't matter what you think they should be called. And I don't want to flame or anything - but the terminology is the way it is. The term "RPG" is used to refer to the stats, not the story and not the roleplaying. Roleplaying is something that is not necessarily tied to RPGs - an action game could potentially have just as many, if not more, roleplaying elements as an RPG... Heck, a platformer could as well... and do check out "Heavy Rain" as well, that is a 100% roleplaying game (but in no way an RPG)

TES allows you to role play, with the numbers just delineating your character's ability to interact with the world and enemies, but it also allows you play the numbers, treating the stats as your role. Both work, win-win.

What I do love about Skyrim is, though the smithing and enchanting can be massively abused (or power gamed, if you feel abused is too strong a word), your equipment does not have to entail getting the next one up, absolutely essential in some more linear games. Human, only want steel, because that is what your character uses, improve it to end game levels. Same with Orsimer and Orcish or Altmer and Elven, you can succeed in any endeavour with the equipment you think suits your character. This one thing, imho, adds a hell of a lot to the ability to successfully role play certain characters.

Biggest problem I have is how quickly those crafting skills climb, and especially so if starting early with them. My sneak climbs gradually quickly as well, because I use it a lot. But I also "use" light armor and alteration, but they don't climb at all, because my sneaking kinda prevents it. So for them I bloody HAVE to buy the skills because they don't climb "by use". Whereas crafting skills climb like crazy from being too easy to use.

Oh and btw, I'm perfectly fine with light armor and alteration climbing speeds, it's the others that are off - and that without any paid training whatsoever, just as a consequence of my playing style. And I'm not going to not perk up sneak a little, if sneak is part of that character, only for the sake of gimping - no way.

No, not really. I can create my character and their story how I want. Final Fantasy seven ( I use this as an example because almost everyone on earth knows what it is): I'm Cloud, I'm a SOLDIER, I was exposed to magical essences, I have flashbacks, I grew up with Tifa, etc etc.

My backstory is not my own. My future is not my own. In the TES series, I can choose to be a murderer or a virtuous person. I can choose to steal or not. I can choose to become the head of a guild or make my way through the world on my own. I can choose to go into dungeons, or make my money chopping wood. I can refuse to do ANY quest in the game if I want. I don't even have to complete the main quest. Yeah, if I want to see the final story, I'll have to finish the main quest, but that is my CHOICE, isn't it?

To the first point, WHO calls you Dragonborn? The guards? Yeah, now who else? No one. The guards are the only ones that'll recognize current events. Everyone else acts exactly the same til the end of time. The random gifts are just that, too: random. You'll never hear "I wanted to thank you again for helping me with Camilla." It's always "you're a good friend to me, have this -PROCESSING SITUATION, GENERATING RANDOM GIFT- wolf pelt!"

To the second, I'm saying that the trees for swords, axes and hammers are PATHETIC. They should make each weapon type feel unique, but they don't. They had the potential to have three different playstyles in one tree alone, but they neglected to really flesh it out. Now the result is one is badass and pierces through armor, another gets bonus damage every so often and the third gets some crappy bleed effect that isn't even noticeable 99% of the time. And hell, that could've been SIX playstyles: why should claymores handle the same as one-handed swords? They do though, and thus one-handed and two-handed are practically one in the same, as are sword-hammer-axe...


True true, was getting a bit off-topic.

Ahh yes, being able to increase the functionality of any armor is a definite boon to the experience. One that is frequently overlooked in conversations regarding enchanting and smithing.