morgue-

if you want to start a dumbed down thread i'm all for it. because skyrim is just that. easily.
the rpg mechanics have been gutted and barely exist. roleplaying is much different than rpg.

skyrim makes me barely think, at all. ever. what to use in-game (which is worthless) and what perks to take. that's it.

other games have made me think throughout the game and constantly consider other aspects.

zyghart-

morrowind, oblivion and fallout3 have NEVER locked you in a class. ever.

Neverwinter Nights 2
Final Fantasy XII
Final Fantasy X-2
Final Fantasy Tactics
Forsaken World
Runes of Magic
All of the Pokemon games (yes, they are RPGs)
and a few others

And wtf does linearitry have to do with it? Final Fantasy XII was pretty linear, but had an open world. The strongest weapon in the game was hidden deep one of the hardest dungeons in the game. You weren't supposed to go and get it until like lv60+, but if you felt brave enough to go get it at level 30, noone would stop you... you'd just have to somehow survive against enemies that could kill your whole party in seconds. And it was actually possible...
Is it that much to expect from a game, to have an open world AND a proper progression? FF XII more or less did it 6 years ago on the PS2 ffs, Skyrim could easily have done better if they didn't stick to that "everything levels with you, every dungeon is as difficult as the previous and the next, all loot is random" policy... =_=

While the choices and story elements were refreshing in Risen, I really didn't feel like it was an open world at all. I felt forced to follow linear story options, even WITH choices, and getting tons of mobs at once didn't feel challenging, it was frustrating, especially with the clunky targeting elements. I never played Gothic so I can't comment on it, sorry.

Ditto, lol!

/shrug

Not how I remember them, though I never played Fallout... game just didn't do it for me.


Go ahead and make this thread, there have been plenty.

I got plenty of booze too!

Can you read? 'The list is too long...be here all day...' ect. No, that's not ''all i've got'' but what's the point in telling someone who is determined to be stubborn? Rather than admit to the simplification to this particular part of the list, you're actually relating Skyrim's diseases...to the flu virus (???) in an attempt to explain away how this imaginary disease might have developed 'resistance'...you're actually trying to give more depth to a game mechanic that has been completely robbed of depth by the developers. That's shocking. And you're ignoring the 'rest of my rant'? Including the bit where I note that Todd Howard ( you know, the guy who basically made this game?) stated himself that the game was 'simplified'? How convenient! So you're ignoring facts stated by the developers now? Walk up to todd and ask him, 'Todd, is Skyrim dumbed down?' you know what he'll say? 'No, but it is simplified'. That translates to; 'yes, we tore the [censored] out of it, because a wider fan base means more money for me'.

Did you seriously just use Final Fantasy as a comparison game to what RPG's SHOULD BE?

Wow. I would state that Final Fantasy games have done more to ruin RPG's as a genre than anything else. The linear movement of the quests, the constant grinding for levels before you can progress, the absolute LACK of story options itself is just...maddening.

Neverwinter Nights is a Diablo ripoff- albeit with a better story. Again, linear, no true open world options.

Your choices for 'best RPG games' illustrate exactly why this game is not a good fit for you. You want someone telling you exactly what path to take. You want someone in your group or an Elder in the game to direct your feet on the path. These games have no challenge- their idea of challenge is throwing multiple trash mobs at you constantly until you hit a big boss, which usually has some sort of elemental weakness or attack order weakness. It's button mashing at its finest.

This is very interesting.

Have you ever considered that Bethesda also shares your "roleplaying is much different than rpg" philosophy and they're actually consciously taking steps toward a "roleplaying" experience?

People can argue semantics all day. Dumbed down vs. Simplified, etc. I prefer to think of it as "getting out of the end user's way."

I'm as big a FF buff as the next guy, but you would be surprised how linear a game becomes by simply not being able to jump.

Pokemon? Compared to Skyrim? Surely you jest.

The rest, maybe some merit there.

These mean the exact same thing.

And, again, you're arguing that the game should be more difficult when your character is at the highest level (as in at his most powerful). That's not how RPGs work.

LOL , limiting OP enchantments that's funny

Now you're just being ridiculously ignorant. Ruining RPG's? Final fantasy defined RPG's as we know them. There would'nt be an RPG genre had it not been for the likes of final fantasy and zelda way back when.

Quoted for truth!

Condescension doesn't win an argument, it just reveals the weakness in your own stance.

Notice you completely, utterly ignored the actual gameplay mechanic I pointed out and went right for the roleplay option I offered you instead. Strawman defense at its finest. I was merely offering you an in game explanation.

Yes, I did, and will continue to ignore your ranting. It's not a discussion, it's soapboxing. You apparently have all this time to type out your vitriol, but it would take 'all day' to list the actual, verifiable issues you have. Don't you find that a little funny?

Now that's twice you have misunderstood what he was saying

I don't understand the hostility to the idea of having more sophisticated gameplay and difficulty options. It wouldn't affect those who like Skyrim as it is but it would add a lot for those who want a slightly different experience.

The only reasonable objection I have seen is that it would take a lot of development time but I don't think that's necessarily the case. Even without the CK there are already mods which increase mob spawn numbers, levels and even improve AI so that that enemies make better use of their abilities. I can't believe it would be that hard to incorporate into multiple difficulty sliders so you can increase each individually aswell as other variable such as damage done, damage taken, levelling speed etc.

WHAT!? Um...... no. NWN is nothing like Diablo except NWN has a similar defaul camera angel.



Interesting fact: two of his examples are MMOs.

Actually, there kind of was.

But, yes, they did help define some genre defining gimmicks.

Except that Bethesda shouldn't engage in Power Creep to satisify the grinders and those with no self control.

Sweetie, perhaps you haven't heard- there were these things called tabletop games, wherein people would gather around a flat surface, write up stats for their characters, and roll dice to determine outcomes.

THAT is what defined roleplaying.

Mind you, I'm a huge fan of oldskool FF games, I grew up on them. That doesn't change the fact that there are NO, NONE, absolutely NO CHOICES to make in them. You follow the path. You have no other option.

A fantastically well written story does not make a game a roleplaying game. FF games are STAT games. You can't ROLEPLAY a game that writes your character FOR YOU.

Final Fantasy and "JRPGs"

Wow. I haven't laughed that hard in a long time. Thanks.

jdfury-

yep, many of us think beth is doing EXACTLY that and don't like it.

the roleplaying part of an elderscrolls game is a necessity and already embedded. that's going nowhere, nor, do i want it too.

the dumbing down and accessibility "considerations" are what many don't want to see.

we want games that are sophisticated and difficult with many classic rpg elements and the ability to roleplay. skyrim has us not using our minds to develop our character down to a T.

the roleplaying "experience" is already there and adding to it is going to be primarily FLUFF at the expense of content and depth.

semantics are very important when debating such topics.

They're saying the game should be more difficult the higher level you get. That's exactly what they're saying, and I'm not misunderstanding it. If they mean something different then they should articulate what they actually mean, not something entirely different.

I don't think there is hostility towards the idea of more challenge- the hostility is directed at the complaints that the game HAS no challenges when the player chooses not to set them for themselves. I think that's the crux of the issue.

And a while ago there was a comment I quoted that interestingly enough, no one has reiterated- previous TES games, at high levels, had no challenge to them until they added the expansions. Morrowind's endgame became so much more fun when they added the expansions. I think the issue is that people reached the max wayyy before Bethesda was ready to give us new content. I truly believe once new content is available, many people will be more satisfied with the enemies at their current 'endgame' levels.

Well, what can I say then -- my experience was the opposite. You have linear storyoptions and tons of mobs in Skyrim too (with the difference being that combat is much more clickety-click-click-esque). Risen undoubtly had its faults, but it did have a pretty steep difficultycurve (I don't remember seeing "tons of mobs" btw the enemies more often came in packs of 1 to 5) even on normal which carried over throughout the game yet still retaining the sense of progression (at least with a melee character), it was an open world, and it did give the choices (even though they were more prevalent in the first two chapters).

The Gothic games were pretty mean, even, in comparison.