Why perk reallocation will never happen, and why it makes ze : V - Skyrim

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:56 am

Oh, and why do I need replay value? I'd much rather spend 120h on one character maxing him out and exploring everything.

Why would you want to do everything with one character? Having a character who is a master warrior, thief, and mage all at the same time would just be silly. I don't undestand how that would be fun. Your character would have no identity, he would just be a god.

You can easily spend 120 hours on a character now, even if he can't have every perk. If you want to explore everything, start a new character. That's what it's for. If you could experience eveything in the game with one character, the game would be boring and badly made in my opinion.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:57 pm

Ok, well if I really tried hard I could be a chemist, an electrical engineer, and a doctor. So give me a higher cap or another way to get more perks over time.

Maybe not perk changes, but additional perk points should be achievable.

There is no higher cap, unless you add another skill.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:59 pm

my only argument is for the dragon bone weapons. i specifically didnt get that perk because i didnt need or want the armor and now they give us weapons...i dont want to restart just for those...but i do want them...just give me one perk point its all i need, but they probably wont and il have to restart...smh

That's the thing though..you made your choice not to pick that perk. I'd be absurdly surprised to hear you DID NOT think they'd add Dragonbone weapons sooner or later..I specifically took that perk MONTHS ago just because I knew they WOULD add the weapons, because it made no sense to take them out. I took it as a precautionary measure.

That's a choice though, and I am willing to live with the results of me making that choice, for better or for worse. Choice needs to matter.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Hi there Stormshout! Good to see you.

A lot of people have been making threads lately about perk reallocation, how we need to be able to "respec" (what is this, World of Warcraft?), and how we need to be able to re-spend perks that we already learned.

This makes zero sense and will never happen, for numerous reasons.

1: Relearning perks is not logical. Taking a perk means you take on that knowledge, meaning you "learned" it. You can't just "forget" things.

Say I want to go to college to be an electrical engineer. Say I've been an electrical engineer for 10 years. Well, all of the sudden, I want to be a zookeeper. I cannot just "forget" how to be an electrical engineer and then suddenly be a zookeeper. Life doesn't work that way. You don't just forget things. That doesn't make any sense at all.

2: Crafting. Say you completely deck out the Smithing tree, get ALL the perks, Smithing at 100, you craft dozens of pieces of high quality gear, you improve these pieces via the tables and grinders, and then BOOM! You forget how to do that? So what, you crafted legendary items and then you lost the ability to do so, netting you essentially items you don't know how to make? That makes zero sense. It doesn't work like that. It would also be absurdly overpowered, considering you could just "get" the best things and then "lol sorry I wanna be a CHEMIST DUDE" and then "respec" to being a master potion maker? No.

3: Choices need to matter, live with the consequences. When you make choices in this game, they *should* matter. Making this game an MMO where you just flow with the wind and do whatever you want without consequence is not a fun way to make TES games. People want choices, people want things to matter. That's why there are so many threads on the boards about how completing quest lines don't matter at all, and it impacts the game in no way. That's not right, and people don't like that.

4: Replay value. Reallocating perks would *kill* replay value. If I wanted to just switch "specs" and be a mage, I could do that. That's absurd. This is not World of Warcraft. If you want to be a Mage, be a Mage. If you want to be a Warrior, then make a Warrior.

So yeah, perk changes will never happen.

There seems to be a flaw in your main point. As of now, Perks are purely a game mechanic. You do not learn them, you do not have to go up to a trainer and learn the ability, you are not required to complete a quest. Infact, the only requirement is to level up, and that can happen over you exerting some other random skill. So, it is highly inaccurate to describe perks as learned knowledge. Hence, the act of reallocating perks is as a game mechanic as perks themselves, and thus quite logical.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 12:24 pm

It would be nice to see it happen but it does sort of kill replay value, if perk reallocation were possible then I'd have no reason to start new characters all the time other than wanting to choose a different race.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:59 pm

It kills replay value. And you can't just "forget" what you already know

And who are you to tell us what kills or doesn't kill replay value? Skyrim is supposed to be a "do what you want" game - so if someone were to want to respec then they shouldn't be faulted for it. If the feature existed, and you didn't like it, no one is forcing you to use it. Derp.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:53 am

Think the bone lords in the soul Crain use them. I believe I seen them in gameplay footage of the dlc.

On topic- completely agree with the op. if you can respec you will have no disadvantages. If you were a warrior and want to start stealing to make money, you could just respec and become a thief. If respec is in the game they might as well just give you all the perks, would accomplish the same thing.

You will so have disadvantages. Obviously you can't respect to have ALL perks so you're going to lose some advantages you had before and gain others that you didn't have.

The OP's comparison to WOW is ridiculous, BTW. If by your logic a perk is a "learned piece of knowledge" in Skyrim, then what is it in WOW? It's the same thing. Sounds like arguing just for the sake of arguing, IMO.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 1:13 pm

EDIT: Nevermind, misread.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:44 pm

If you don't like it, don't use it.

Stupid simple really.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:36 am

If you don't like it, don't use it.

Stupid simple really.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 10:27 am

If you don't like it, don't use it.

Stupid simple really.

What a horrendous argument. Don't like cheating? Don't cheat! Let's just add God-mode cheats that have ui toggles on and off to Skyrim for the console users. Let's make a wireframe mode toggle able too! Heck, why not a 2d sides roller version too?

Don't like it, don't use it!

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:04 pm

And who are you to tell us what kills or doesn't kill replay value? Skyrim is supposed to be a "do what you want" game - so if someone were to want to respec then they shouldn't be faulted for it. If the feature existed, and you didn't like it, no one is forcing you to use it. Derp.

My opinion bro. Calm down. And trust me I won't use it.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:49 pm

What a horrendous argument. Don't like cheating? Don't cheat! Let's just add God-mode cheats that have ui toggles on and off to Skyrim for the console users. Let's make a wireframe mode toggle able too! Heck, why not a 2d sides roller version too?

Don't like it, don't use it!

how does it hurt your game? if people want to play that way then they should be able to not every one has time to roll 2-3 different characters personally I wouldnt use it but if someone does want to use it who am I to tell them how to play their game

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:13 am

What a horrendous argument. Don't like cheating? Don't cheat! Let's just add God-mode cheats that have ui toggles on and off to Skyrim for the console users. Let's make a wireframe mode toggle able too! Heck, why not a 2d sides roller version too?

Don't like it, don't use it!

Because, PC players don't already have it.

Your argument is more asinine than what you claim mine's to be. "The world will end if Bethesda gives console players what PC players can already do!"

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:19 pm

Hi there Stormshout! Good to see you.

There seems to be a flaw in your main point. As of now, Perks are purely a game mechanic. You do not learn them, you do not have to go up to a trainer and learn the ability, you are not required to complete a quest. Infact, the only requirement is to level up, and that can happen over you exerting some other random skill. So, it is highly inaccurate to describe perks as learned knowledge. Hence, the act of reallocating perks is as a game mechanic as perks themselves, and thus quite logical.

Not just a mechanic, it is representations of learned skills and abilities, learned over time. Picking them is a shortcut for the player, in the same way as paying for training, press key, go up skill, don't have to watch your character firing at a practice target for hours. It's the same with waiting, sleeping, jail time; just because you don't have to sit in front of a screen with a snoring character displayed for eight hours doesn't mean your character hasn't slept in their virtual world.

And who are you to tell us what kills or doesn't kill replay value? Skyrim is supposed to be a "do what you want" game - so if someone were to want to respec then they shouldn't be faulted for it. If the feature existed, and you didn't like it, no one is forcing you to use it. Derp.

Well, and only replying because you used the word 'derp':
By that logic, Paarth coming back to life, the sun coming back on, and saying 'I have all the shouts I need, I want the dragons to stop appearing now' are all perfectly valid. Just stick the magic re-perk stone next to the race change and 'I don't need all that stamina now, I'll take it as health' stone, and everyone who thinks "I don't want any adverse effects from my mistakes" is more important than taking a stab at decent rpg design is happy.

Oh, yeah, 'don't like it, don't buy it' is a terrible argument, about as valid as 'don't like it, don't use it'.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 4:54 pm

Even if there were perk reallocation I'd start new characters, there'd probably be some limitations on it so that it wasn't easy to do whenever you wanted. Your examples are true in the real world of course, but with magic you could concievably change everything (training, skills, knowledge, etc.) instantaneously, other games have done it in the past (DA:O for one). I wouldn't particularly need or care for it, but I could do it now if I wanted to using mods on PC.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:50 pm

What a horrendous argument. Don't like cheating? Don't cheat! Let's just add God-mode cheats that have ui toggles on and off to Skyrim for the console users. Let's make a wireframe mode toggle able too! Heck, why not a 2d sides roller version too?

Don't like it, don't use it!

Yeah apparently re-specing is god-mode now? Good to know. I guess every other game that is just as challenging and fun with a respec feature can be pigeon holed into your asinine statement above. Try again, friend.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 5:23 pm

Yeah apparently re-specing is god-mode now? Good to know. I guess every other game that is just as challenging and fun with a respec feature can be pigeon holed into your asinine statement above. Try again, friend.

I like you.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 2:31 pm

It would be nice to see it happen but it does sort of kill replay value, if perk reallocation were possible then I'd have no reason to start new characters all the time other than wanting to choose a different race.

That's what great about RPG's. You get to see what you missed when you start a new character :biggrin:

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 11:20 am

The obsession some players have with regulating the way other players approach a single-player experience still surprises me a bit. It's like the fast-travel argument all over again.

Yes, our choices in games should matter--to a point. But not past the point where it creates undue frustration for the player--like the poor schmoe who doesn't want to restart his game completely just to undo one suboptimal perk choice.

Games are supposed to be fun. Games are not about making you a better, more responsible person--because they don't do that. Games are an escape. Proudly living with the consequences of your choices in a video game does not make anyone a better person in real life. So why argue in favor of denying others the option of a widely used RPG convention such as re-speccing (which, in my experience, does not automatically ruin every game it appears in). Make it expensive, sure, but give the option.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:13 pm

Its funny that you mention wow and mmo because that is what you make this game sound like. God mode characters or speaking of overpowered characters. My question is this a one player game or not? Yes that's right its a one player game so why can't I do with my one player game. What I do in my game has no effect to the game as whole.
And sorry no this s a game where my character makes no difference in the world at all. So why should I have to sacrafice my 120 hour character just because I want to try magic even though I have it all to 100? And factually not being able to kvetch skills actually keeps me from starting a new character after seeing how long it takes to get skill points.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:34 pm

Stormshout, thank you for posting exactly what we were thinking. Perk reallocation is about as much needed as dragon mounts.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 8:54 pm

While I am completely against reallocating perks, the OP is wrong in saying that people "don't forget". Of course you forget. If you learn a skill and are very good at it, then stop using it for a while, your skill will diminish. So, again, though I am against reallocation, lets use a better argument than that. How about, being able to reallocate your perks would mean that the decisions you make in the game have very little impact or meaning. You need to plan better and live with your choices. If you are really unhappy, create a new character.

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 3:21 pm

Well, you can forget things just like that.

If you want to know how, please pay your attention to this right here.*FLASH* You want to be a zookeeper. Good day

» Fri Jun 22, 2012 7:14 pm

Whenever you use real life as a justification for something in a video game you lose all credibility.

Not when you're discussing an RPG genre that is intended to simulate another alternate life. You seem to be struggling with binary thinking, as if there are only true or false answers and no context at all. This makes a person myopic.