no, the combat in morrowind is not anything like the others. it is based almost exclusively on your characters stats.

2hours to get 10 experience? i have no idea how you play, but, i would almost have to go out of my way to not be able to get 10 experience points from one of the numerous methods of advancement.

in morrowind, you must take the time and effort to increase your skills. trainers are hugely effective. you will get eaten up in morrowind unless you increase your skills. flee from stronger enemies. fight with a full stamina bar. train up your primary weapon as soon as you can.

This I love about Morrowind and little to no level scaling in general. Its a harsh world out there. Be fully prepared or be eaten. Truly survival of the fittest and the smartest. And not because everything sticks to your level.

I joined the fighters guild in Balmora, whose first assignment had me clearing out three rats from someones home. The first rat was ok, but as soon as I stepped through the door to take care of the other two, I was as good as rat food.


1. That's the plan, and I intend to stick to it. If my opinions don't change, then at least I can't say I didn't give MW a proper try.
2. Good point, it just felt odd. Given that my pre-TES RPG experience has been with FF, I can't see it being too long before I get to grips with it and pay more attention to attributes
3. I know I would've benefitted from some sort of "Beginners guide to Morrowind" but what I don't know now I'm likely to learn later and apply it to future playthroughs.
4. Probably another thing that will be improved as my experience in Morrwind grows. One thing that does annoy me is the lack of a toggle for sneak. My first characters have always had some element of stealth, so having to hold down Ctrl and operate W,A,S and D with one hand while using the mouse with the other isn't exactly easy.

^ You can toggle sneak. At least in the PC version, I don't remember if you've said what you play Morrowind on. I can see where this would be annoying, but I think you've just missed an option somewhere in keybindings to assign a key to 'toggle' sneak rather than 'push to' sneak.

And as for the rats. You could buy a scroll to cast a spell on one of them. Or you could hit and run

Read that post again, I said looks like Ob and Sk combat but plays more like Final Fantasy. Stop taking it so personally and actually read my posts, I'm not putting Morrowind down, just explaining that although I am experiencing difficulties I am still giving it a chance and I'm not going to be put off by those difficulties. Like a true gamer, I will percevere and find a way round those problems.

A lot of my time was taken up with exploration of the settlements I found myself in, so don't scoff at the idea it's taken me so long to get as much experience as I have. Remember, this is my first playthrough so I don't have the knowledge of MW as you do, nor am I using any sort of reference material to tell me what does what, or who offers what training so I'm essentially playing blind.

I'm playing Morrowind on PC, I was going to tag it onto the end of my first comment in this thread, but deleted it for some reason (though WASD kinda gives it away, lol). I must've missed that option, but I do know there is a mod for it, so I'll have a look at that.


Hit and run has been my only option, thus far. Though when I was sent to clear a mine, I was chased back into Balmora where I hoped the guards would come to my aid if they attacked me in front of them. Unfortunately, didn't work and I incurred a bounty for retaliating and they killed me instead. I must be doing something wrong, lol.

Anyway, this is going too far into the realms of Morrowind for a Skyrim forum, lol.

Doomsiren: what exactly would you like us to admit it "wrong" with Skyrim, because I don't see anything "wrong" with it, as a game, as an RPG, or as an Elder Scrolls game.

Things are different - some for the worse, some for the better, but nothing that is inherently "wrong"

So what do we need to admit is "wrong"?

i did read your posts and there's nothing personal about it. how about this, then: the combat of morrowind doesn't look or play like oblivion or skyrim.

i'm not scoffing at all, but, stating i really don't know why you are having problems getting 10 exp. pts without watching you play. i don't think 2 hrs is a 'normal' amount of time to get 10 pts at all and so it makes me wonder what's up.

it may have come off harsh too you,but, i wasn't trying to be anything other than honest.

i say keep up the blind play and not looking things up online. it makes it much more enjoyable and a true sense of accomlishment.

Elder scrolls once Upon a time was an RPG , then it slowly downgraded toward a hack and slash game because of the Consolle orientation and the "streamlining" idea of the Bethesda chiefs ...

Welcome back to the discussion, Nell.

First of all I don't think Doomsiren meant 'wrong' in the sense that you might be thinking of, I think he was trying to get the poster in question to admit that there were bad things about Skyrim, or things that Skyrim did very poorly, or things that Skyrim did worse than Morrowind. If you can't own up to Skyrim's faults that I think it reveals the intellectually closed nature of your arguments. I know Skyrim is far from a perfect game and give quantifiable examples where it does things poorly, worse than its predecessors, or just had been design decisions, but to hear some of you talk it's like nothing at all is the matter with Skyrim, it couldn't be improved, how dare we criticize it.

I think Chojin is correct, superficially the combat of Morrowind looks like an older version of Oblivion, which looks like an older version of Skyrim. You click your mouse, it swings your sword/casts your spell. The controls are largely similar in terms of moving, running, jumping, sneaking, walking, everything else. And that's the point he was trying to make.

As for his leveling speed I don't think it's for us to worry about how long it takes him. I can't recall how long it took me to reach level 2 when I first played Morrowind all those years ago, but it doesn't matter. He might just be exploring, running around and talking to people and seeing what the game has to offer rather than going out to hit stuff and increase his level as quickly as he can.

Threads title fits,

who gives whether or not it can be considered an RPG, COD as stated in the past thread, hark nearly any game can be considered an RPG, funny when you get into that realm of thinking the people who are saying it is an RPG -Do not Like- that form of definition for some reason, even though when shored up against its predecessors it is much much less.

Now its, Why Skyrim isn't a great RPG

can be entirely subjective now, someone with 0 experience or nonchalant view points on RPGs would consider Skyrim a Great RPG, while those who've actually had a time with the TES series will often notice the differences and not enjoy them.

and for the Folks grasping at straws with Skyrims streamlined aspects concerning attributes/Dialog/story/ etc etc Please the freedom is there because there's nothing in the first place. Attributes/Class do not exist in skyrim, where in Past games it had little bearing on the game, now its Nada/zilch/kaput. don't confuse barren landscapes with Lush Vistas

When I said it looks like Oblivion and Skyrim, I mean the NPCs move in what passes for real time in Morrowind. Logic dictates that the combat would be in real time. How hard is that to understand? Think of it from the point of view of someone that has never played Morrowind, nevermind other attribute-focused RPGs and maybe you'll understand what I mean.

Exploration, dialogue and fact finding. I've avoided combat for the most part... which might have heavily contributed to my lack of EXP gain.

The only things I've looked up online are the beasts and enemies of TES and their appearences throughout the series, though I don't think that counts as it doesn't help me advance in anyway in Morrowind.

I usually avoid trainers, too. Maybe I shouldn't in Morrowind

You can avoid trainers in Morrowind if you wish, they can be a great way to get your character up to a medium level quickly so you feel more confident venturing out of the cities. Also keep in mind that in Morrowind there are no limits on how many times you can train in one level, so you can literally sleep to hit level 2, and then go talk to a trainer and train your way to level 3 without leaving the building. Some people find this unrealistic but I disagree, and on some characters I go really big into training to show my character entering a sort of 'boot camp' mentality where they're training hard to improve themselves to meet some challenge or live up to some standard. But then I Have some characters who never use training so shrug.

If you're terrible at a certain skill and want to get better, trainers are a much less frustrating way to do so. I'd recommend it.

I mean you don't just go out and decide to sword fight one day and expect to be any good at it. You take classes and whatnot until you get at least somewhat proficient.

Everything can be improved on some level - the greatest games, the greatest novels, the greatest movies, the greatest music.

Of course, I also realize you're not implying that Morrowind is above improvement.

However, what my point is, and always has been, that where Skyrim "needs"improvement is entirely subjective. And I also believe that to say because Skyrim can improve in certain areas means it is no longer an RPG is a very flawed argument.

Would I agree that Skyrim can improve in places?

Yes.

Would I agree that Morrowind did certain things better than Skyrim?

Yes.

Would I agree that makes Skyrim any less of a game or RPG?

No.

Why?

Because it is my honest opinion, as someone with very extensive experience with Morrowind, Oblivion, and Skyrim (these are my 3 favorite games of all time, and along with Fallout 3, I believe all set an entirely new standard of gaming that no other game or series can live up to. Call me a Bethesda really devoted fan if you want for saying that, but I truly believe it. I truly believe that Bethesda reached a new pinnacle of gaming with those 4 names that I listed off, and I don't believe that any other game has reached that), while all 3 games do things better and worse than the others, I believe the foundation, the heart and soul of the series, remains in tact within each game.

Yeah, sure, I feel that Oblivion would be a better game if it had a couple of the skills that Morrowind had that Oblivion doesn't - but I can't say that Oblivion is somehow less of an RPG because of that. On the entire package, there are certain things that Morrowind does better than Oblivion, and certain things that Oblivion does better than Skyrim.

And the same holds true for Skyrim. Yes, there are certain things that Morrowind did that are missing in Skyrim, but that doesn't make Skyrim any less of an RPG. What's never considered is the areas that Skyrim improved over Morrowind, and there are many, and they go far beyond just the graphics.

I have no qualms with the opinion stating that Morrowind was better than Skyrim. That is a subjective opinion that boils down to preference. I do have qualms with stating that Skyrim is no longer an RPG because it does things differently than Morrowind. That doesn't come off as an objective statement to me, it comes off as someone completely dismissing it because it didn't do things the way they are used to.


And again, this is a completely irrational and inaccurate statement.

I have spent plenty of time with The Elder Scrolls, dating back to the release of Morrowind. The differences, while there, are hardly noticable to me because the essence, the foundation, the soul of the games remains the same throughout the series. There are differences in the details, but the essence remains the same.

This is coming from someone who has extensive experience with the last 3 games (if you want to go all the way back, well then, you got me, I have hardly any experience with Arena or Daggerfall, my experience is so little with those games that you can probably say that I haven't even played them), and plenty of RPG's beyond that. To me, as an avid RPG fan, TES games, from Morrowind up to Skyrim, are the epitome of what defines an RPG, a standard that no other RPG has been able to meet.

However, despite that, I wouldn't say other games are less "RPG"- instead they do things differently than I prefer... that doesn't make them any less of an RPG, it means that they way they go about handling an RPG is not necessarily to my preference in comparison.

it's real time, but, also one of the first attempts on the xbox to combine realtime player skill with character-based mechanics and so it has some rough edges, lol.

the experience non-problem, lol? i see. the way you worded it made me think of a bug or that you didn't know how to gain experience and levelup.

in morrowind (as opposed to oblivion and skyrim), i am always buying training when i can because it can take a long time to level your skills through non-training methods.

Change is not necessarily better. IMO pen and paper is a far superior game to 4e because 4e chains you to a battle mat (like a board game), whereas pen and paper is far more open world.

You can toggle sneak on the Xboc version of Morrowind too, but it is a little finicky and does not toggle as smoothly as Oblivion or Skyrim.

I wasn't aware I worded it in such a way, but that doesn't matter because we got there in the end.

My opinions (on topic) stated in this thread and it's predecessor are from my own experiences within Skyrim. It is in my opinion that Skyrim is both an excellent RPG and TES. Obviously in the case of RPG it differs from the classic attribute-laden formula, but then it could be consider a sub-genre of RPG alongside Oblivion. Given Morrowinds attribute system, it can't be included in this sub-genre along with it's TES brothers.



Change is also inevitable.

I've not done pen-and-paper since my time playing board games like Hero Quest. I do text based RP but that's more story telling than anything else. The closest I come to pen-and-paper now are MUDs

I don't understand why people keep hailing Morrowind as such a great RPG, because to be honest it was a dumbed down version of Daggerfall when it came out. Looking at other great RPG titles Morrowind never got close to games like Baldur's Gate 2. Morrowind was a game I enjoyed for a time, I loved it up to the point where I reached a certain level and finding though fights became annoying because it could take hours if not a day of playtime of exploring to find that one fight that lasted 20 minutes and then you spent 8 more hours for the next fight. When I replayed Morrowind I knew where most of the good stuff was, where most of the enemies was so it was way easier to find fights that would be fun but for what reason? Once they were dead should I start a third time, knowing where I could get all the best items and become godlike from early on? Morrowind wasn't a bad game it was a good RPG, but it lacked in the game play department. For me re playability got hurt that most things were static, had I played it once there wasn't a surprise where to find certain items anymore.Why should I go out and explore if I knew where on the map the good stuff was located? I played Morrowind with a few characters, but in the end it lost it's glory for my part. There was other RPG's that delivered better on story, how the world was and combat system.

Skyrim isn't a great RPG either, for being a Action RPG which it is it is ok in the RPG department, what makes skyrim really shine is what has made most TES game shine possibilities of exploring and to discover a world and what it hides. It is a fun game to play but RPG mechanics are shallow and could have been so much better. I like what they did with Character development as now I can create a thief that still is a thief at max level without also being the best mage, the best two handed fighter etc. If I want to I can create a jack of all trades character still, but it is MY choice not chosen by game mechanics. Guilds as normally in TES games are shallow, guild ranks etc doesn't make guilds more interesting, in the end being a guild leader is still as pointless as it ever been and more so in Skyrim where the world and it's people doesn't recognize you for what you have done. TES games have never been about deep game changing consequences, some has determined your character one way or another but never has the choices you made meant you either screwed your character or you made him awesome. Dialogues and NPC's could have been improved upon, I still remember my first encounter with Minsc and Boo in BG2 it was epic. In the beginning I didn't quite understand who Boo was and when discovered the little Hamster and the conversation Minsc had with and about him it made the entire game feel epic. I do miss characters like that in modern day RPG's, Shale in Dragon Age Origin was a interesting character same with Morrigan but they cannot compare to Minsc and Boo.

Pen and paper is a thing I still play, and that genre has also changed a bit. Not as much as the computer games, because playing pen and paper RPG is still looked upon as pretty much geeky thing to do. Looking at latest D&D edition the dreaded 4th edition it is a truly huge step in the wrong direction for pen and paper games. And they know it due to bad sales and bad reputation on forums and whatnot. Still new systems comes out some better then others and some of the D20 stuff that I have seen does try to streamline and simplify things to make it easier and faster to learn and easier for new people to get into. The pen and paper genre will most likely not change as much in the future, unless it become seriously popular to play pen and paper RPG they will stay the same. The day pen and paper RPG becomes mainstream and is something everyone want to play is the day we see system like the 4. edition of D&D be sold in numbers... And gods if they exists must know I hope that day never comes...

swollen-

morrowind = console availability.

as for the other points: yes, both games have their +/-, but, i give morrowind much more leeway, due, to it's position in time.

too many of the faults of skyrim are needless and unacceptable, to me, at this point in gaming technology.

This post has been one of your better ones, probably because you were on an iPhone or something before if I recall. But it's important that you admit that Skyrim is a flawed game. Now we're more on the same page because while I choose Morrowind as my favorite, and you (I assume) choose Skyrim we can both say with confidence that neither game is perfect and leveling criticism at one or the other isn't a dishonest exercise. Though in my opinion it's more useful to give Skyrim constructive criticism since it's the latest installment, and its reception is more likely to determine the future of the TES series at large but in particular the next TES installment.

That said there is a fallacy here. No one would accused Skyrim of not being an RPG just because it's an imperfect game or has aspects that could (or even need) improvement. Yet let's pretend that the next Madden game (a football simulator) launches, but for some unknown reason the game is released and there's no quarterback - you just have a defensive and offensive line, and the guys on offense just choose a receiver or running back to give the football to before the play starts, cutting out the need for the quarterback. Now in this hypothetical you have a game that looks like American football. It reminds you of American football in many ways, and it has many things in common with American football...and yet it's not quite the same. Now you definitely wouldn't call it basketball or soccer, but it seems to be a different beast entirely. That's sort of the issue with Skyrim, it's cut out fundamental parts of the genre for no real reason, and dumbed down or poorly implemented other fundamental parts of said genre.

Morrowind can be forgiven some things due to technical limitations etc. It was the leading edge of "3D" rpg's in many ways and was very much advanced for it's time. However todays gaming industry suffers in the way that people expect the graphics to be top notch, and the time they need to make sure the graphic is good is also taking away resources that could have been spent on making the game that much better. I wouldn't mind if Skyrim had Oblivion graphics if the RPG mechanics was a lot more improved, however a lot of the possible customer base would have said "Dude this is 2011 not 2005, gief better graphix plx!" The console generation is in many ways a plague and a blessing for gaming, it has brought us a bunch of new games we might not have gotten if it weren't for them, but also gaming has changed from pleasing a specific fanbase to pleasing the masses.

I accept the faults of Skyrim for what they are, some of them I have fixed with mods, some I still feel is an annoyance. However I ain't gonna let them prevent me from enjoying the game for what it is, it does give me hours of fun by exploring and discovering all the small details in Skyrim, and there is plenty of small details that brings a smile on my face. I hope the next TES game or for a DLC that things go back to more RPG focused mechanics, but at the same time as long as the masses of gamers are where the most money is I don't count on it to happen anytime soon. :/