Bootysweat had to ruin our fun, but he did bring us up to page 11 which might be a gamesas forum record. Thread #1 http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1365497-why-is-skyrim-a-great-rpg-a-not-so-great-tes-game/page__st__270

Quoted from previous thread:


Maybe I was wrong about your level of experience with Morrowind, but my osbervations about the game itself are entirely correct. Morrowind does have better variety and flexibility than Skyrim by virtually any measure.

A post to which you responded saying that the arguments I was using (not specifically me but the arguments themselves) could've been used to define COD as an RPG. You gave up with your COD sidebar because someone had finally gotten to the point your were trying to make, or something like that. I can't remember exactly what you said and at this point I'd have to go back and find it again just to make sure.

In my books, that's still shot down because you gave up your position, so to speak.


You just explained everything I already knew, but I guess you did warn me you might.

With other RPGs in mind, the most prominent being the Final Fantasy series, I do understand where you're coming from when you say "true RPG". I suppose I can even go so far as to agree that Skyrim isn't a true RPG, with a but.

Genres, like everything, evolve. If it didn't, we'd still be playing pen-and-paper-style. If consoles didn't evolve, we'd still be play 8-bit characters that didn't even move from there position during random encounters (sticking with RPGs, obviously). RPGs are no longer restricted to turn based styles, meaning attributes are becoming less and less important. Not so much so that they'll eventually disappear, because while we still have Magicka, Health and Stamina they'll still be around. What you also have to remember is that those three attributes have an affect on almost everything we do. Our stamina, for example, effects how hard we can strike, how long we can run for and how much we can carry; to name just a few. The only real attribute that is now gone thanks to Skyrim is Luck.

Thank you

Skyrim is not a great RPG because it lacks the depth and choices of a great RPG. Even Oblivion and Fallout 3 have more choices RPG wise then Skyrim. Skyrim is still a pretty good game but it's not the greatest RPG ever made. I would rank Skyrim 3rd on my list of Elder Scrolls behind Morrowind and Oblivion.

many people say that they like how you can plan a character and then proceed to become that character in skyrim.

my response: how in the heck is that different from morrowind or oblivion?

i could choose magic, intelligence/wisdom and all magic skills then proceed to play as a thief warrior assassin.

therefore, the argument is really against the leveling system.

LMFAO, the original post's title was "Why IS skyrim a great RPG & a not so good TES game"
now it changed to "why skyrim isn't a great game or TES game".
next one gonna be "why is skyrim a game?"
and the last one just "why?"

Really? I'd rank it first on my TES list. As it stands the descending order of preference for me is Skyrim, Oblivion then Morrowind. Like I said in the last thread, though, I've not long started playing Morrowind. I know all you "hardcoe" TES fans are going to jump on this post at the first chance you get because I ranked Morrowind so low, but bear the fact that I just started MW in mind and realise that the order is not set in stone.

Can't see why classes would ruin anything for anyone. If there is anything to blame for selecting the wrong skills it would be the player only.

I stopped talking about the position because no one was putting forth any more challenges to it, that I saw. Of course the entire reason I took it was to make a point that, like you said, someone hit on. And of course I don't really think that Skyrim isn't an RPG or that Black Ops somehow is, I was making a rhetorical statement to make people think and begin to realize that Skyrim is such a watered down RPG that if you really want to be aggressive about it any criteria you use to justify Skyrim's RPG status could justify a similar status for Call of Duty: Black Ops.


If you understand the inner works of Morrowind's gameplay and still don't like or appreciate them then that's fine and a valid opinion. But I wanted to make the case for them all the same incase you, or more likely a random person reading the thread did not understand what we were talking about or where I was coming from.


LMFAO. The other guy was right, you have a tendency to not deal intellectually with the people disagreeing with you. The original thread was someone asking to be informed about why some people consider Skyrim to be either a bad RPG or no RPG at all, and how it stands up vs. previous Elder Scrolls installments. The title of this thread still fits with the premise of my side's answer to the OP's question, and the case we've been making all along. If you feel different, and want to articulate or defend a different position then this is where you should do so. People know better what they're getting into when they click this thread: There will be people explaining titular position outlined in the thread, and it's to be expected that there will be other people who feel differently arguing for the opposite view point. Hopefully we can have a fun exchange of ideas and a lively debate, and with luck change a few minds.

Then, hopefully, enlightenment.

In my opinion, Morrowind is severely overrated although it does a lot of things well. If this was just from a gameplay perspective, Skyrim would be number 1. As an RPG though it leaves a lot of be desired and we have less options then we had in the previous games. Not to mention that Magic is hardly magic anymore with the low amount of spells and lack of spell creation. I like Skyrim a lot but it's leaving a sour taste in my mouth.

Probably because you have not explained yet (at least not in this thread) why you ranked it so low. The terror of death said it was because it lacks depth and actual choice.

I agree, it feels that the 'other side' so to speak offers up more opinions and emotional responses than hard facts or quantifiable evidence/proof for their statements.

I wasn't trying to bring back your Black Ops comparison, valid though it might be, I believe it served its purpose. I was merely telling whoever else that brought it up that it had been done.



And well put, I thought.

If I had never played an RPG where attributes were important before, then what you said may have swayed me. However, my favourite RPG series will always be Final Fantasy (Sorry Bethesda) so I am very used to how attributes work. I am aware that this may seem contrary to my initial opinion of Morrowind, but it's just something I'll have to get used to again, nothing more. I'm sure once I get my head back round the attributes, I'll be fine with Morrowind; I always wanted to give it a fair go, anyway.


I don't agree with the title of this thread. It says that there has been another thread with the same title when in reality this thread is your rebuttle to the previous one. However, it's not really a problem because I'm sure people are smart enough to figure that one out before they even get as far as this post.

One more thing, why do you remove the names and date/timestamps from your quote? Unless you quote me, I don't know who you've quoted or why essentially taking their point out of context.

oooohhh, now I understand, I didn't get the intellectuality of the title! Simple!
anyway, lore-wise your title is misleading as it's not the second part of the other but just you keep on stating your opinion, without explaining it btw.
so if you made it just for yourself, why calling it "part 2 of something" in the first place?

Pretty much. It makes them look silly.

Mainly because if I only want to quote a small part of someone's post, like now, it's kind of a pain to hit the quote button and then have to cut out the parts I don't care about. Also, occasionally I'll quote multiple people in a post so it's just a matter of typing in the code for quotes and pasting in a line, writing my response, finding the next line, and so on. actually typing out 'quote name='Chojin613' when I have a half dozen quotes from three people to respond to really starts to slow me down. But I can try to be better about it going forward.
The fact that the last thread crept up to 10 pages before the moderators noticed spoke a lot about the intensity and interest in this topic. In the later pages of the thread I floated the idea that I'd make a part 2 in order to continue the discussion and that seemed to be met with receptive approval. If you disagree, or don't like the topic of the thread then you're free to stop visiting. If no one is interested, the thread will quickly fall away into obscurity.

Edit: See I tried to type just [.quote name='bartoman'] but it wants me to give a timestamp and post number too. So you can see how it would be a pain to have to use the quote button, cut away what's not relevant for my response, etc.

well,attacking everyone who disagrees with you isn't a good way to keep your thread up...
wait...
...maybe it is...

Good point, hadn't thought of that. Reasons are below.

1. I've not long started
2. Combat looks like that of Oblivion and Skyrim (Action RPG perhaps?), but plays like that of Final Fantasy (not so much the turn based aspect, but the attributes)
3. It took me a few hours to get 10 EXP points to level up to level 2
4. I'm being eaten for breakfast by everything

That being said, I'm not giving up on Morrowind just like I'm not going to give up on Daggerfall. Most of my time away from Skyrim, or whatever I decide to play on my Xbox, will be spent on Morrowind.

I believe it all boils down to this.
U either like min maxing ur charectors u don't
u either like their to be consequences and or rewards in how ur charector is or u don't
U either like the fact that ur charector will be great at something and horrible or mediocer at things or u don't
U eitherike ur charector starting off a badass who just gets even more badass or u dony
U either like ur charector starting off as a nobody and works his way up to being everyones savior from a nobody or u don't
U either like having ur hand held through the game or u don't
u either like the fact that its on you to pass attention and theres no golden arrow pointing the way out for ya or u don't

Its all about perspective here. Some peoe ejoy the beautiful shallow waters of no consequence and some like the rugged dangerous oceans that ur decisions actually matter on where ur going.

Yes skyrim is a beautiful game, but it lacks overall consequences. And tbh I blame the writers more than anything, the artists u could tell poured their heart and so into the game and it shows. The writers? U can tell they was rushing thru and taming it as easy as possible, because ot shows. If the writers didnt do such a shoddy job, I really dont think id be bad mouthing skyrim off one bit, because to me tes games are awell written story acted out in a sandbox. Not a short sprinkled over a sandbox.

Cluttering up threads with nonsense and back peddling is also not a very polite and good way to get your point across. Can you admit at least something is wrong with Skyrim? And not try to sugar coat it?

Took my less then thirty minutes to level up. You do keep your distance of red mountain are you? I would also suggest joining a guild. The first quests usually involves low level creatures and thus providing a more guided difficulty and steady level up.

Okay whoa. First of all I was avoiding attacking you personally, and even went out of my way to disavow the guy who called you a fascist and came to defend you. And frankly, I don't 'attack' anyone who disagrees with me, I attack their arguments and they're free to attack mine.

The only possible exception to this is when I called you out for being 'unintellectual' in your approach to this debate when you made what I thought was kind of an obnoxious statement, so I got a little frustrated. Sorry, but what I said is still something I believe - your side hasn't made very many intellectual arguments or backed up their positions as well. I see above that Chojin just acknowledged this, and then amended it by giving reasons why he doesn't like Morrowind much which I will now respond to.

1. Hopefully you'll get further into the game and re-evaluate your opinions with time.
2. This is a valid point I think. Real time combat with d20 elements in unintuitive, but overtime I feel that it grows on you. Furthermore, I think this is a byproduct of making a game where you play a single character, without any party or grouping of other characters. They wanted to make a game with 'Final Fantasy-style' mechanics are you put it, but realized that a turn based system would be overly cumbersome and unnecessary without the strategic need of having to assign actions to an entire party of characters.
3. Again with greater experience in Morrowind you might learn a bit more about how to effectively level up, or things you can do to make things go quicker.
4. This is a problem with your character build more than anything. If you make a Dunmer character (who has Shortblade as a bonus skill), make 'Stealth' your specialization, make 'Shortblade' one of your major skills, make 'agility' one of your primary attributes, and choose 'The Lady' as a birthsign (increases your agility) and make sure to only do battle with your fatigue bar full or near full and of course use a dagger/shortsword then I guarantee you that you'll do quite a bit of damage, and virtually never 'miss' an attack. Also, when you make an attack hold down the mouse button for a second or two before releasing - this will increase the power of each attack. If you follow these steps I'm sure you'll have an easier time, but when you first get into Morrowind it's easy to miss some things, or get discouraged. I promise that the combat gets alot better and easier when you start to level up a bit higher, and as long as you're careful to not go into any ultra scary place before you're supposed to.

Unless Bethesda pulls a miracle outta their ass with the dlcs that come out, to me....

Skyrim is a rpg, but it dosent stack well against older titles and I believe I pleaded my case well enough in last thread. Fun game, just coulda been so much better if they quit taking [censored] out that breath life into the game. All the little stuff.