Funny thing Kyuuen, With all the linear quests, meaningless C&C and Immortal quest NPC's They've pretty much eliminated choice for the player. You can only do things the way they wanted.

But of course, nothing has been "dumbed down" in Skyrim, everything is great & fabulous in the magical world of La-la-land.

TC, can I have some?

Yes, and the OP goes on to clarify the point made. if you can't read the enire post before you get mad, then I'm not discussing it with you

And as far as your "dumped down that EVERY FREAKING QUEST GIVER (EVEN THE JERKS WHO JUST DO BRAWLS) ARE FREAKING ESSENTIAL", the answer is simple- if they could die you couldn't complete the quest. It's not "dumbed down", it's a gameplay mechanic. As I said in my first post in this thread, players are using the term "dumbed down", and they use it because they can't really articulate what they don't like. You can honestly tell me it's a sign of highly intelligent gameplay design to make a quest impossible to finish by design?

opinions can't be wrong, fail

A good read with excellent points, and I agree with everyone of them. However, don't expect to have any influence over those who herald these complaints. Nostalgia can make people both blind and deaf.

Nonsense.
Enchanting is most certainly not more deep.
First of all, before Skyrim I could put up to seven enchantments on one weapon, not two.
Secondly, there were many more effects to enchant with.
Thirdly, there werent any arbitrary hardcaps as to what effect could go on what apparel slot.
fourthly, there were no arbitrary hardcaps as to the strength of the enchantment.

Especially for those who started playing these games right AFTER Skyrim, must be a hell of a drug.

And in Morrowind for example, you could kill Vivec the first time you see him, usurp his throne, and rule the city? Maybe players wanted that. But no, Beth forced them to play the way they wanted them to play. What you're saying is true of the yardstick for TES games, the sacred Morrowind

Skyrim is certainly not dumbed down, yet you won't hear the detractors say anything positive about the game. Skyrim has better Graphics, better Scaling, a Radiant Quest system that takes us to different places instead of go to point A (Bloodmayne Cave) and kill some bandits, at least with Skyrim it's we have 6 choices of locations and you can randomly be assigned to one of them, better leveling system that doesn't automatically overpower you, the ability to create weapons and Armor, the ability to further Roleplay our characters more then any of the previous games, etc.

Actually, yes, you could kill Vivec the first time you saw him.
Only one NPC in Morrowind is essential to the main quest, and even Yagrum can be killed.

For many, yes. Me? I have a list of things I think Skyrim could have done better, just like Morrowind and Oblivion.

I agree that enchnating is not more deep, but I argue that it is just different. You seem to feel that if 12 enchantments were posible in Skyrim, then the game would have passable enchnating. Also, you don;t comment on learning enchnatments, which I think would be great IF they had the old system, and the new way, and you could make stronger enchnatments than normal by breaking very valuable things to learn their enchnatments.

But in Oblivion for example, there were limits, and they were hardcapped. Just differently. Soulgem type, cash, and time. The sliders all had upper limits

What would be great is if we could smith soulgems in Skyrim, and improve them like armor. Good mod concept

I couldn't so I guess that's my install or my playing. Could you also take over his throne? Could you rule the city? Take his place as a God?

His essentialness or lack of the same notwithstanding, My question holds: Can you do what I asked about taking over? Were you able to play that way? of course not. each TES title steers you on a path

The argument:
"It was like that in previous games, therefore your opinion on it in this game in invalid"

Is one you should drop....if it has been a problem in past games its a that could have been fixed here. Stop using that as a defence for Skyrim....at least older fans admit that the older games aren't perfect.

Not everyone has been hanging around since 2006 bro.
Some of us might have missed the first dozen or so times this has been discussed.

False
Random FTW, uh?

Smithing FTW !!! also I love standing 5 minutes in front of a GIant in order to level up my armor or block, just your usual grinding isn't it?

Please elaborate, this is going to be fun.

Doesn't that also hold true for attacks on Skyrim then?

Some aspects of the game have been simplified obviously but I don't think its as drastic as a lot of people make out.

Although I never used spellmaking I agree its unfortunate that they decided to chop that because many people liked that feature.

The class choice at the start of previous ES games seemed a bit pointless to me, as you end up defining your character by your use of skills. So personally I don't care that that is gone. It makes sense for a class-based game like Dragon Age or Neverwinter Nights rather than a skill based one like ES in which its mostly something you glance at on the character creation screen and then forget.

Attributes I'm in two minds about. Oblivion's system was messy where you had to be careful to use certain skills to keep a balanced character attribute-wise. This damaged the role-playing experience for me because I was often busy trying to balance my skill use for attribrute distribution instead of using the skills that fitted my character. Skyrim feels more natural in the use of skills for levelling.

Quest-choices have always been lacking in TES games, so there is no surprise there. I don't think its any worse than Morrowind or Oblivion. Some of the quests allow you two obvious choices or three if you're clever like the Forsworn Conspiracy quest in Markarth. NPC dialogue is also quite responsive to these, as in that one alone I've come across a dozen characters who have post-quest dialogue about that one. Many quests also have special post-quest random encounters.

Guild quests are a bit short unless you fluff them out with the minor quests. The College of Winterhold is packed with lots of mini-quests so I did find it as full as the ones in Oblivion or Morrowind using all those as well. They are mostly go-fetch quests but the Morrowind mages guild ones were mostly the same. Visually the quests are much more interesting than Morrowind with better locations and special effects.

false concept. that's how you chose to play the game

You minsunderstand me, I mean playing for the FIRST time these old games and thinking they are superior to Skyrim, how does nostalgia work for them?

No, I actually like the enchanting in Skyrim, though I think magic in general has too few effects and that could use some adding to.
I agree that the disenchant feature is a great one. Its very rewarding to finally find that one effect you were looking for and it is fun that you have to learn effects before you can use them. Gives a sense of progression.
I also really like spell tomes.

Its just that I dont think Skyrim's enchanting is more 'deep' than that of previous iterations.

NO, if it's been a problem is previous games and still exsists in Skyrim ,then complaining about it is still valid.....as it's something that could/should have been fixed in Skyrim.

People are focused on Skyrim since it's the newest game, but problems like lack of a changing world, boring NPCs etc are just carry over issues from Morrowind/Oblivion

Sure, like I said, every character starts out basically the same. I don′t think you are wrong because you prefer it the other way, that′s my point, it′s a preference. I am just saying that the game isn′t dumbed down because they designed it this way instead.


But that is very much possible I think, sure you end up with a few skill points in non-mage skills like lockpicking, speechcraft etc through natural interaction with the game, but if you stay away from the perks in these skills it doesn′t take away the image of your character as a pure mage.


Agree, it′s always been quite shallow, so nothing has changed to support the claim that Skyrim is dumbed down in this regard compared to previous titles.


True, some of these features may still have been fun, I was just avoiding discussing which features I like and don′t like by pointing out that streamlining and cutting is a sensible part of game design if you want people to discover the content that you designed for them to enjoy. Again, it′s not dumbing down, simply making design choices for the purpose of giving the player the experience you as a designer want to deliver.


I may come off as a big Skyrim fan, but to be honest I enjoy Skyrim sort of casually, it′s like eating a pizza, it tastes good and makes you full and satisfied, however it′s not an advanced culinary experience. There are other games that are much deeper and deliver a more complex experience, however I don′t think that those games are Morrowind and Oblivion. I can agree on plenty of criticism about Skyrim, just not those that compare it to other TES titles and say that those were by comparison like eating lobster and kaviar.

This again

You heard about how great they were,, and liked them- after Skyrim

The games have great content. That's why they are great. In your case it's not 'nostalgia' per se but a realization that those older games are more to your liking in gameplay.

There's nothing wrong with that, but to fault Skyrim for not being what those games are is, like I said before, like blaming a new car for not having features that an old car has. If you liekd those old features, then there could be a problem for you. Doesn;t make it a worse car though, and it doesn't make the car "dumbed down"

That′s the most stupid post-modern attitude ever...opinions can be wrong, that′s why we killed the nazis!