Some people are just resistant to change. When the old LP vinyl music albums were being retired from store shelves, people came up with all kinds of excuses why vinyl was somehow better and more authentic. Then people didn't want to give up their cassette players, because they had so many music cassettes. Music CDs are now rapidly becoming outdated as iPods and MP3 players are the norm for music.

Games and services like Steam are no different. People just are having a hard time coping with the fact that a physical CD is no longer necessary or even that efficient. As more people gain access to high-speed internet, digital distribution will become the norm.

Well whatever happens Steam is here to stay. It's the least intrusive "DRM" there is out there at the moment, and I find having chat, the ability to browse the web ingame, being able to take screenshots and easily upload them to your own online gallery, automatic updates, the ability to play without a disk and achievements a fair trade off for the one time internet activation.

So much for Macs being easier than using a Windows PC. You know what I do to put music from an external HDD to my internal HDD? I plug in the external HDD, I open the external drive, I hit ctrl + a (shortcut for select all), ctrl + c (shotcut for copy), then I go to the relevant directory and hit ctrl + v (shortcut for paste). Then I can open whatever media player I care for and ask it to scan for new music in the library.

By the way, it will be a freezing day in hell before I let iTunes manage anything for me on any system that I care to actually work on. I don't want to copy various preference files from this or that media player to avoid the player deleting files and I don't want to use some "migration assistant". Either the application can figure out what I want to do on its own or it's a pile of garbage made by idiot programmers who think the users are there to use their applications rather than the other way around, that they're there to make applications for the users.

Then again, such a sentiment would be classic Apple, wouldn't it? So many Apple-bots would use any product released by Apple and insist that it's the best and most user friendly ever, even if it consistently kicks them in the balls during use. Granted, I don't like Apple. I don't like Jobs. I don't like their design much, and I really don't like Chinese workers committing suicide at the factory that produces iPhones at what, less than 20 bucks a piece, while Apple are easily selling them for ten times that amount. I also don't like MacBooks costing $100 more than the worth of their hardware solely because there's a partially-eaten fruit. Generally, I'd say that I'm very biased against Apple products. This bias may show in the above.

Oh, and

But there is a drawback to this, as that is close to what I have. I still run version 1.1.21.0, but I won't be able to update unless I turned on Steam. For now, I am not going to be using Steam until I can figure out an option that I can be comfortable about. So yes, I can play Skyrim without Steam or the Internet; it leaves me stuck at launch day waiting for a patch that really has fixed most of the bugs and/or quest items. Until then, I have to play knowing I am going to have broken quests and other things misbehaving.

Its not that I hate Steam..
I hate having to register for stuff... putting my personal info out there.. I've had stalkers, 1 real life ex, and random person who showed up at my house(who knew me from internet) and internet stalkers... Don't forget all hacking thats been the "in" thing.

There is just no trust.

I bought Ps3 copy of Skyrim (with plans to pick up PC version just for CK (since chance of mods for console seemed like a good chance)

If i had read box case at Best Buy and saw that it required "online" to play/register via steam) I would not have bought PC version at all. My Gaming PC is Offline only.

I have no love or hate for Steam.. I just hate being forced to do stuff. >_<

Aggregate data is not an invasion of privacy though and it doesn't come from anything outside of Steam itself (i.e. How many people on Steam are playing a game at a given time).

Hard copies of games, even on consoles, all have End User Licence Agreements. These are pretty much standard on the concept that you have a licence for the software. You agree to it by opening the shrinkwrap (console games) or clicking "I Agree" on PC games. How valid are they? That's up for debate. But a EULA for a game on Steam is no different to EULAs for non-Steam PC titles or console games in this regard.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by "sign in to an account that is in someway tied to my finances. This by itself is hazardous enough." If you bought Skyrim at retail or your bank has paid Valve, if bought through Steam, then the purchase is complete and you can play the game simply by logging into Steam, be it on your own PC or a friend's.

As I said earlier, DRM is only one aspect of Steam. Now, if someone is absolutely determined to pirate a game they will, DRM only prevent casual piracy (the I'll burn a copy for my mate kind) but there's evidence that Steam has proven to be a reliable alternative to pirated copies in some territories.

Lastly, I know how to operate a computer. I also like convenience. I like convenience when it works well, which Steam does. I can go to a game's site and download a patch and install it. It's not hard. But it's more convenient when Steam does it for me. I log into Steam, it download's the update and it's done.

It actually has very little to do with that, and quite honestly... we will never move past physical mediums.

Mp3 has been out for over a decade, and yet CD's and other mediums are no less relevant. Indeed Vinyl and other older formats are making somewhat of a comeback as slightly more than a niche market.

People are resistant to the idea that they cannot own something they paid for, and indeed there are MANY instances of electronic media that people do own... or are at least free to operate with no strings attached. When you have a physical copy of software, with no strings attached, regardless of the EULA... you OWN that particular piece of software and are free to do with what you wish. Abide by the EULA or not. Steam reminds me of having a cop in your car just to make sure you don't exceed 1/4th a mph over the speed limit.

In truth, Steam has very little to do with piracy or ease of use. Its more akin to monopolizing distribution and cutting out middlemen to force people to buy an overpriced product.

I can't exactly reference certain sites here, but you would absolutely be surprised by the surge in activity at the sites that Steam is supposed to be cutting out. I would estimate that new users for this specific piece of software, Skyrim, has probably doubled or even tripled just because of Steam. Though I've only read comments in other forums in passing, so wouldn't exactly know directly.

I, personally, associate Steam with recent initiatives like COICA/SOPA/OPEN/PIPA... or data mining that reminds me of Google or Facebook (There is a Google Tracker on this very site) ... or iTunes and the way it functions.

That is why I don't like and will never use Steam, and will never buy a product from Bethesda for PC. Keep your mods, I'll keep my privacy.

sounds to me you are pretty freaked-out and paranoid. Online is the way the world is moving. There's no future in resisting it; and there are many benefits (and dangers). Accept and adapt. I have had no problems with online gaming (other than the poor quality of my local internet connection).

I wrote a similar post about this issue a few minutes ago Warrior. Some of us Chose to buy Skyrim and knew we had 'use' Steam to activate it. The complaints are now that we have purchased the game, followed the rules, installed Steam, activate our games; a Ninja patch comes along and changes our systems to making it a 'requirement' to have Steam installed and running.

We chose the game, and chose to accept the terms on the box for activation. We played the game for a week or so and all was fine. It was when the whole Steam/gamesas Ninja patch a week or so later that screwed how we play our game from the original day we bought, to now.

There was no CHOICE in that requirement.

What are you talking about? Thats exactly how you do a copy on any computer mac or pc. The problem with the people in the forums that I was addressing was the setting of itunes being messed up and how you can keep your itunes library with the same organization. A .pref file is infiniatley easier to copy then re tagging your MP3s for those of us who like our computer jukebox to stay organized in a particular fashion.
Those forums i was addressing were also trying to steal music off networks. If you are trying to run apple software on a pc, then you should really re think what computer or what software you are using.

Skyrim is Steams highest selling game, so yeah I guess sales for Skyrim are really bad.

This is it. Sensible and simple.

When digital distribution becomes the norm I'll stop gaming and just play what I have now. When I buy something I want a physical copy, especially when it comes to my games.

The way you described Google, Facebook, iTunes and Steam as all "data mining", makes it seem like paranoia as opposed to genuine concerns. There are no privacy concerns with Steam. Ignoring hacking, keyloggers and stuff as that is possible for anything you do on the internet. The only information they have of mine is my name, date of birth and email address. That's less information than my local library have about me.

Digital Distribution IS the norm now.

I have not had any issues using Steam. In fact I like not having to put a disk in and not having to check for upgrades. Look, there has to be something to reduce piracy and so far Steam seems to be the best option.

Nothing I say will make you change your mind or be the least bit critical of the quality of service you're receiving, but there are two things you said, which are factually dead wrong.
1) Music CDs do have a higher quality than MP3 files. MP3 is a lossy format, which is why an album is smaller when converted to MP3 than when you keep the raw wave file. What this means is that some sound details are skipped in order to make the files have a much more convenient size. Effectively, anything below 192 kbps quality is complete garbage that is almost painful to listen to on anything but the most cheap speakers you can dig up. 192 is tolerable with most PC speakers but you really need 256 kbps for it to not sound garbled every now and again, at least with any kind of remotely decent speakers. And the better speakers you have, the better quality you need.

2) I don't care how fast your internet is, because it's not likely to be faster than my DVD rom drive (20x read for up to 27 mb/s or ~220 mbit/s) and it's certainly not faster than my SATA HDD (up to 150 mb/s or 1.2 gbit/s). And mind you, this is a fairly old HDD. Modern SATA drives are twice as fast and it gets even more fun once SSD goes mainstream. If you think your high speed internet is more efficient than my HDD image then you're having a laugh.

By the way Steam doesn't take your info unless you go to the settings and set it to do that.

Have you even used Steam before? and hell its just hardware info anyway, do you complain about fluoride in the water to?

According to the box I purchased the original condition was acceptance of the Steam Subscriber Agreement.
Initially I wasnt happy about it either...but I quickly realised it is the way Bethesda has chosen to market their game...I want to play the game...so I have accepted and adapted to it.

So far I am very happy with the game...and I have had no issues with Steam.

So in my view people need to just get over this issue and move on. it's pointless [censored]ing about it endlessly. Digital distribution is the future.

Physical copies are going nowhere, there isn't enough bandwith in the world for an entirely digital age.

Just mindless lipservice for a police product some people are satisfied with, and stating that Skyrim is Steam's top selling game is in no way an indicator of acceptance of Steam. People that don't have Steam didn't buy the game... Correlate that with the amount of Skyrim copies purchased for consoles. Then try and estimate how many people broke rank and played it their own way.

Where does Steam sit now? Thought so...

I would contend that the new age of non-privacy is becoming the norm, and perhaps when they have to sign into Steam just to watch The Kardashians or The Jersery Shore... only then will people begin to see the problem.

Convenience at the price of user choice. Steam will always update to latest version regardless of whether that version is complete garbage or not. It won't let you upgrade to any other version. What this means is that if you're using SKSE then you have to wait for a few days or change your mod list, simply because a new patch was released. If you update manually then you can keep playing and update at your convenience.

It's also convenient to buy your fruits and vegetables online, but it happens at the cost of someone else selecting what you're getting. I have a really comfortable recliner but it's not so comfortable that I care to eat rotten tomatoes or spongy carrots.

Steam is good while it works but its a real pain when something goes wrong or you purchase the wrong game or just anything happens that isnt of the norm. Steam support is the worst I've ever seen. No phone support, 5-10 day support ticket responses, they refuse to aid with absolutely anything that you may have a problem with, accounts can be locked/banned and you lose everything just because someone over there says so, and just in general valve is a bad company.

I strongly hate the fact that we have to deal with Steam simply because they're so useless. Nothing is done when it come to consoles in terms of piracy (even though in most cases it's worse on consoles), yet pc users have to put up with crap like this because we the pc users are the scape goat for everything possible that can go wrong. More and more developers choose to tie their games in with Steam and more and more people are getting sick of it. I'm sick of being treated like a criminal even after I've handed you my money.

No, it isn't. Consoles vs PC... who sells more?

It does seem to be trending that way, but it simply is not currently.


All aforementioned products track usage, and aggregate this data to sell to advertisers. Its a digital journal of your time, and when added to your personal information it presents a much clearer picture of you than your own photo on your driver's license.

That is what I meant by privacy, and yes... I am somewhat paranoid about trackers and block them through Firefox religiously. If you're going to sell my information to the highest bidder, I want some of that money.

So much for piracy I guess...

Obviously you have no clue if that’s all you think. I would bet there more people then one would realize that have held back on skyrim and many other games because of steam. My number one reason , this is just mine is that you are forced to use it, simple as that. This ties into the fact that im tethered to it, dependent on it, and the mercy of it, which is just wrong period. There is no argument about that, as im sure its been said, with steam you don’t really feel like you own your game, just feels like a long term rented game. I know all about offline mod, its not 100% reliable.. Steam encourages people to do things they normally wouldn’t to own a game with out it.. Who are the pirates here, I say steam are the real pirates by coming up with this horrid system to play games.

You are just pulling this out of your ass, aren't you.

Go look up some Steam statistics then come back.