[Bee Baby]

One thing that annoys me is that it's possible to reach the same armor cap with light armor as with heavy. If you made light armors weaker, so that the max armor rating you could reach was more like 50% rather than 80%, it might make more sense to group them together with cloth. But for the magic side of it, I'd still like to see a distinction between clothing that doesn't protect at all and clothing that does, though that's definitely outside of the scope of this mod.

[Kari Depp]

Thick leather work gloves and motorcycle leathers aren't designed to and aren't very good at absorbing blows from weapons.
They offer minimal protection. Silk gloves wouldn't be just as protective. Why would you assume that?

No, but they do protect against sharpness (which is part of what makes a sword deadly). I was lampooning your suggestion that leather armor and plain-clothes offer the same protection.

And if leather armor didn't offer protection, it wouldn't have ever been invented.

You should talk to http://www.gamesas.com/user/326946-spookyfxcom/ if you're interested in historical leather armor. He's an expert on the subject.

[Farrah Barry]

could the perk adjustments be optional please? I already have mods that modify those perks just the way I want them, and don't want to risk incompatibility.

[ILy- Forver]

No, but they do protect against sharpness (which is part of what makes a sword deadly). I was lampooning your suggestion that leather armor and plain-clothes offer the same protection.

And if leather armor didn't offer protection, it wouldn't have ever been invented.

You should talk to http://www.gamesas.com/user/326946-spookyfxcom/ if you're interested in historical leather armor. He's an expert on the subject.

I don't think leather offers much protection against cutting, not from real-life experience or according to my weapons & armour encyclopedia. At least not in any way that is comparable to any metallic armours. I don't think metallic armours and leather armours should be comparable in any respects. I think they're two entirely different categories altogether. Leather may be much better than nothing, but it's no-where near the same league as metallic armour. Leather armour was invented because metallic armour didn't exist and continued to be made because it was much easier and more affordable than metallic armour.

[April D. F]

could the perk adjustments be optional please? I already have mods that modify those perks just the way I want them, and don't want to risk incompatibility.

Perk adjustments are already a part of the mod.

[Gaelle Courant]

I don't think leather offers much protection against cutting, not from real-life experience or according to my weapons & armour encyclopedia. At least not in any way that is comparable to any metallic armours. I don't think metallic armours and leather armours should be comparable in any respects. I think they're two entirely different categories altogether. Leather may be much better than nothing, but it's no-where near the same league as metallic armour. Leather armour was invented because metallic armour didn't exist and continued to be made because it was much easier and more affordable than metallic armour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLGwNY3xMjM

Perk adjustments are already a part of the mod.

I meant the armour perks

[zoe]

I don't think leather offers much protection against cutting, not from real-life experience or according to my weapons & armour encyclopedia. At least not in any way that is comparable to any metallic armours. I don't think metallic armours and leather armours should be comparable in any respects. I think they're two entirely different categories altogether. Leather may be much better than nothing, but it's no-where near the same league as metallic armour. Leather armour was invented because metallic armour didn't exist and continued to be made because it was much easier and more affordable than metallic armour.

Well then we're in agreement, and I think Imp's suggestion of different armor caps for the armor materials would reflect that well (Perhaps upgrading leather/hide armor should result in weight reduction/mobility increase rather than a higher armor value)

could the perk adjustments be optional please? I already have mods that modify those perks just the way I want them, and don't want to risk incompatibility.

Just use load order manipulation to pick and choose which mod affects what. See the link I posted earlier about compatibility.

EDIT: Though I'm doing some more thinking. The game uses an Armor Class system similar to D&D which represents how hard you are to hurt, not necessarily how well protected you are assuming you got hit in the first place. So a high light armor skill represents your character getting out of the way, while a high heavy armor skill represents your character moving in such a way that blows glance off. Just food for thought.

[Sabrina Steige]

I don't think leather offers much protection against cutting, not from real-life experience or according to my weapons & armour encyclopedia. At least not in any way that is comparable to any metallic armours. I don't think metallic armours and leather armours should be comparable in any respects. I think they're two entirely different categories altogether. Leather may be much better than nothing, but it's no-where near the same league as metallic armour. Leather armour was invented because metallic armour didn't exist and continued to be made because it was much easier and more affordable than metallic armour.

A leather jacket is going to protect some, but not much, but if you look at the leather armor in the game it's obviously several layers thick. A piece of paper isn't going to stop a knife thrust, but a phone book might. Only a few of the light armors are leather though. If you were really going to reclassify all gear as either heavy armor or unarmored, you'd probably have to reclassify leather, elven, glass, and dragonskin armors as heavy armors. Doing that, and replacing the light armor perk tree with a more interesting unarmored one that included things like dodging and higher jumping, would be something I might use.

[claire ley]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QLGwNY3xMjM


I meant the armour perks

Lamellar armour isn't in the game, and if it was it would be under the armoured category. Not unarmoured. It also is not comparable to work gloves or leather clothing.

Elven & Glass armours would definitely be considered Armoured, not Unarmoured. They're metallic. Not leather.

[steve brewin]

Also, looking at a piece of armor in SkyEdit, there's a dropdown menu for selecting whether an armor is heavy, light, or none. This game's dumbed down enough without removing complexity by doing away with existing categories. Maybe ditch the lockpicking tree for unarmored ?

*Edit - Whoa, SkyEdit currently lists Actor Values as a form category (its listed under "uneditable", but then so are things like grass at the moment.) Does that mean we'll be able to define new actor values?

[Adam Kriner]

Also, looking at a piece of armor in SkyEdit, there's a dropdown menu for selecting whether an armor is heavy, light, or none. This game's dumbed down enough without removing complexity by doing away with existing categories. Maybe ditch the lockpicking tree for unarmored ?

I'd rather get rid of pickpocket than lockpicking since it's possible to pick a lock without sneaking but not possible to pick a pocket without sneaking. Though this is starting to get outside the scope of a crafting overhaul.

[sally R]

!
Free reign to make incredibly long winded balancing suggestions? Oh, you're going to regret that...

What I was thinking would be a system that works a bit like this:

Material gives:
Weight, Hardness, Edge.
Weight is how heavy it is. Contributes to some weapons damages, carry weight, swing extertion and speed.
Hardness is how solid/rigid/resistant the material is. Contributes to all weapons damages and increases critical chance.
Edge is how sharp an edge the material can keep. Contributes to some weapons damages.

Style gives:
Reach, Critical Chance, Speed.
Reach is what it says on the tin.
Critical Chance is how likely the design is to cause criticals.
Speed is how maneuverable the weapon is.

Each of the different weapon types would have their base damage determined by a mixture of their materials weight, hardness and edge.
Dagger:
33% Hardness + 66% Edge (How rigid the blade will be when thrust, how sharp it is).
Longsword:
50% Hardness + 50% Edge
Claymore:
20% Weight + 30% Edge + 50% Hardness
War Axe:
40% Hardness + 20% Weight + 40% Edge
Great Axe:
35% Hardness + 30% Weight + 35% Edge
Mace:
60% Hardness + 40% Weight
Warhammer:
40% Hardness + 60% Weight


So you might break up material like:
Weight (Lightest to heaviest):
Moonstone -> Glass -> Iron -> Steel -> Orichalcum -> Dwemer ->Ebony -> Daedric
Hardness (Softest to Hardest):
Iron -> Moonstone -> Steel -> Dwemer -> Orichalcum -> Glass = Ebony -> Daedric
Edge (Dullest to sharpest):
Iron -> Orichalcum -> Steel-> Dwemer -> Moonstone -> Ebony -> Glass -> Daedric

So light materials like Moonstone make excellent daggers (Low weight = higher speed, high Edge = Higher damage) however an ebony dagger is also a viable choice (High weight means it's slightly slower, and it won't do appreciably more damage despite is much higher cost/rarity, but it does have a signifigantly better critical bonus). Dwemer that is heavy and has decent Hardness makes excellent, if slower maces and hammers, but a glass hammer is still a viable choice likely to cause more critical damage and swing much faster.

This opens up a lot of variety and choice for the player whilst keeping the materials system relatively simple. When you layer this on top of weapon styles (A faster swinging basic sword? Or a Dwemer broadsword that trades a bit of that speed for extra damage? A light critical causing Orcish warhammer? Or a heavier Dwemer hammer that trades subtlety for damage?) it turns a fairly simple system into something that gives the player some real gameplay choices and keeps the weaker materials relevant for longer.

[John N]

Material gives:
Weight, Hardness, Edge.
Weight is how heavy it is. Contributes to some weapons damages, carry weight, swing extertion and speed.
Hardness is how solid/rigid/resistant the material is. Contributes to all weapons damages and increases critical chance.
Edge is how sharp an edge the material can keep. Contributes to some weapons damages.

Speaking of material, it annoys me somewhat that additional metal is required to improve a sword. For armor, it makes sense, you're not going to make a briastplate twice as durable without adding some extra plating. But weapons are sharpened, not grafted onto. I like The Witcher 1/2's system of using diamond dust and sharpening stones to improve weapon damage. How this relates to material is that some materials hold an edge better than others. Glass can be made incredibly sharp (its cutting edge can be 1 molecule thick, that's why some eye surgery is performed with glass scalpels.) Hard metals can also be made sharper, in general, than soft ones. So maybe improving a blade made of a hard material (ebony) would take more diamond dust, but you'd also be able to make it sharper than an iron sword. Technically this could be accomplished in game by creating perks that upped the amount of improvement for some materials.

[Laura-Lee Gerwing]

Lamellar armour isn't in the game, and if it was it would be under the armoured category. Not unarmoured. It also is not comparable to work gloves or leather clothing.

Elven & Glass armours would definitely be considered Armoured, not Unarmoured. They're metallic. Not leather.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jpuSzgkZN4 hardened leather
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L_EmI6V0S8&feature=related boiled leather

the point was that hardened leather stopped the cuts, the hardened leather armour and boiled leather armour did the same things as the Lamellar armour.

[+++CAZZY]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jpuSzgkZN4 hardened leather
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7L_EmI6V0S8&feature=related boiled leather

the point was that hardened leather stopped the cuts, the hardened leather armour and boiled leather armour did the same things as the Lamellar armour.

Those armours would be armoured (Armour for absorbing blows). Not unarmoured (Comfort, Agility, Style). . I believe you're missing the point, possibly even intentionally.

Glass & Elven armours, despite their lightness, are not a logical progression for a Thief, but are for a Warrior.

[john page]

Hard-Leather & Cuir-bouilli would constitute the lowest level of Armoured clothing, as it is historically. It was worn due to lack of availability of better metallic armours. Which would fall into the new Armoured category.

[Adrian Powers]

Lore is importat here - Dwemer metal was heavy, so it should produce heavy weapons - weapons that make damage because of weight like hammers, should be best made from Dwemer metal. Elven should be exactly opposite. Light material ideal for light fast weapons, like daggers, or bows etc...

Iron should be completly average metal, Steel should be similar but having slightly higher damage and lighter weight (+10% damage ,-10% weight?). Orichalcum should be similar to Steel (+20% damage vs Iron), or more like advanced Steel - also Skyforge weapons should share similar qualities because of special manufacturing process.

Glass would be like advanced Elven, and Ebony would be like ultimate Steel like material - hard hitting, but slightly lighter than steel and Orichalcum...


Another idea i got is to make ingots heavier - currently you can carry lots of them,but you need just few to manufacture heavy armors... (4 Steel Ingots to create weight 35 Steel Armor...) Making them heavier would also slow the whole smithing process down as nobody would carry 50 Iron ingots in the beginning of the game...

I agree with this, all the way. A sort of "Dwarf-Fortress" style material system could work well, with certain metals being better for certain weapon types than others.

Iron, Steel, Silver, Ebony, Daedric: "Balanced" Metals; Iron and Steel for obvious reasons, and "Silver" is just Steel with a silver coating - Ebony due to Lore, and Daedric because of its mystical nature.
Orichalcum, Dwemer: "Heavy" Metals - Maces, Warhammers, anything that relies more on weight than a cutting edge.
Moonstone, Glass: "Light" Metals - Swords, Axes - for balance reasons, maybe Great-Axes should be put into the "Heavy" Category? That way there are 3 Weapon types in each category.

So, I figure, under this system, weapon progression would go like this:

Edged Weapon: Iron -> Steel/Silver -> Moonstone -> Glass -> Ebony -> Daedric
Blunt Weapon: Iron -> Steel/Silver -> Orichalcum -> Dwemer -> Ebony -> Daedric

[Sxc-Mary]

I'm not ignoring the material conversion. I just haven't finished digesting it yet. I'm building bunk-beds.

[Fanny Rouyé]

I'm not ignoring the material conversion. I just haven't finished digesting it yet. I'm building bunk-beds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-apLT6Ot3s

[Prue]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-apLT6Ot3s

So the childrens have more room for activities. Yes. Th0ough hopefully my bunk beds last a bit longer than theirs did.

[Latino HeaT]

I take a break, and come back for 3 more pages to read. Thanks for that guide on compatibility -- I've just been going by all the things I've picked up from having played Morrowind and Oblivion.

Lots of really interesting ideas here. Yes, I have been reading some of the other threads on perk tree and crafting plans by other modders. So far, the one I like the best is the one proposed here. The second closest is the one being developed by PaladinRider. Please don't make me stay with Vanilla.

[A Boy called Marilyn]

Scion-of-Fenrir: Actually regarding TES Lore, Orks consider smithing their sacred tradition, They were original habitants of Skyrim before human races came.. Their favourite weapons have been always axes,not hammers, therefore i'd say Orichalcum should be more suited for Axes,which means it cant be as heavy as Dwemer. Dwemer stuff is incredibly heavy..

[sas]

And now... more walls of text!

I was thinking that the major ways to differentiate betweem styles could be trade offs between:
Weight: The physical weight of the weapon and how much fatigue it takes to swing it.
Balance: How quickly you can swing the weapon around.
Damage: How much it hurts to get whacked with weapon.
Critical Chance: How likely you are to have limbs removed or bones pulversised by said weapon.

So:

Spoiler

Basic - Run of the mill.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Nordic - Heavier weapons that trade weight and balance for better damage.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Orcish - Heavy weapons that trade weight and balance for more vicious strikes.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Altmer - Weapons that are heavy, but handle well. (Really depends on whether they keep the current paddle sized blades or get switched out to small, light blades).
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Dunmer - Trades critical for low weight and high speed.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Dwemer - Subtlety is illogical.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Orante Altmer - Killing someone with style is as important as killing them at all.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Dremora - I will hit you with this rock.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

[Danger Mouse]

And now... more walls of text!

I was thinking that the major ways to differentiate betweem styles could be trade offs between:
Weight: The physical weight of the weapon and how much fatigue it takes to swing it.
Balance: How quickly you can swing the weapon around.
Damage: How much it hurts to get whacked with weapon.
Critical Chance: How likely you are to have limbs removed or bones pulversised by said weapon.

So:

Spoiler

Basic - Run of the mill.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Nordic - Heavier weapons that trade weight and balance for better damage.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Orcish - Heavy weapons that trade weight and balance for more vicious strikes.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Altmer - Weapons that are heavy, but handle well. (Really depends on whether they keep the current paddle sized blades or get switched out to small, light blades).
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Dunmer - Trades critical for low weight and high speed.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Dwemer - Subtlety is illogical.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Orante Altmer - Killing someone with style is as important as killing them at all.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

Dremora - I will hit you with this rock.
Weight:+++++
Balance:+++++
Damage:+++++
Critical: +++++

I'm hoping we get more stats than just these four, but I like the ideas!

Re: armor and such, I've actually got something up my own sleeve there, a sort of "dynamic armor class." How much % damage reduction your armor actually gives will depend on your armor rating, the level of the attacker, and the weapon being used to attack you. The plan is to have the amount of AR you need to achieve a given %DR increase as you face higher-level enemies, so even if you do reach the armor cap for whatever level you're at, once you graduate to facing more powerful opponents, your armor won't protect as much, and you'll need to improve it.

[Jason White]

Keep the walls of text coming. I'm sorry if I came off harsh earlier. I was frustrated with the Nexus Community.

This is my proposed idea for an armour system replacement. I've been thinking about it for many years, lol. D&D's system is essentially perfect. But, I don't think it could be implemented in the current system without animations to represent how it functions, like in NWN1 where characters would actually block, deflect, parry and evade attacks that their AC defeated. In Skyrim we have hits & blocks, no rolls, no suitable animations. So, therefor my idea is different than both Skyrim & D&D.

In my system armour represents damage resistance factor. I'd like armour to have different values for cut, chop, thrust & impact resistant factors, but I'm not sure Skyrim would support that elegantly. Therefor I would add those different values together to produce an overall Armour-class. Armour-class increases with the overall quality of the armour which is comprised of style & material. In my system there are no light, medium or heavy armour categories. Just armour. Heavier armour carries a heavier penalty, but as is realistic, if you desire better protection you must wear better armour. Leather armour is never better than, comparable to or even in the same realm as ribbed plate armour. It's not a 30% difference, it's a difference that is really not even representable by a numerical value. They're just two different realms.

Therefor my categories of items and perk tress would be armoured & unarmoured. Armoured characters wear armour for protection, deflection, absorption. Unarmoured characters wear their armour for mobility, comfort, style, to not be naked. They're not wearing that armour to deflect or absorb blows, they prefer to avoid blows altogether. They're not interested in the item's AC, therefor I'll call them unarmoured. Not to imply their armour offers absolutely no protection, only that they're not dressed for protection. Let me summarize. An armoured character is wants armour that focuses on absorbing & deflecting blows, and unarmoured character wears what he wears for any alternate reason. If you had a person who was interested in protecting his body from attacks and he was wearing leather armour that would be because no better armour was available to him, or he couldn't afford it, or wasn't expecting a fight. No-one wears lighter armour because they believe it offers them better protection. If protection was their primary concern and they had the money, they would take the strongest, heaviest armour they could find.

Using only Skyrim's vanilla armours these would all be considered "armoured items" fur, hide, studded, leather, elven, scaled, elven gilded, glass, dragon-scale, iron, banded iron, steel, dwarven, steel plate, orcish, ebony, dragon-plate, daedric. They're in no particular order. They're all in the same category because they all function the same way, are used the same way and are worn for the same reason. Yes, Glass & Elven armours are lighter than most other metallic armours, but that doesn't mean they're worn or used differently. They're still used to deflect & absorb blows. A character who enjoys mobility & protection would still be an armoured character, though he may choose to wear lighter or less-restricting armour styles. A character who is a thief would be an unarmoured character. A gladiator, warrior, mercenary, paladin, fighter, barbarian all would be armoured characters. They wear armour to protect themselves. They won't avoid glass armour because it's lighter than iron. It's strong & does its job. Weight shouldn't be the deciding factor in who can or will want to wear armour. Everyone who fights will want to wear armour.