The idea expressed numerous times in this thread that folks can reach mastery in Smithing just by playing normally is absolute rubbish. Given the number of weapons that need to be created or upgraded to reach a skill of 100, you need sustained grinding. It's most certainly not a case of coming back from a few dungeons with ingots and bam, you're a master.

I feel like staves should do this. It's not common to see mages wander around with bows.

I think you missunderstood the point.
Instead of fighting MJ12 I want to become an MJ12 Commando. That is choice and not linear story telling.

Well said OP.

I do have some ideas to fix the crafting:

Simply decreasing the amount of XP smithing low level things gives you as your skill level increases, at some point reaching ZERO for crafting an iron dagger when you are unlocking dwarven and orcish armours for example and reducing that amount of ore and bars on sale would fix this. You would no longer be able to farm smithing as it would entail going out and actually doing dungeons to find different kinds of ore (maybe make the ore respawn faster given the lack of it on sale).

As far as enchanting goes, I think that item quality should come back. As in Daedric armour can hold a stronger enchantment that iron given the same enchanting skill and perks. Not much to be done with this.

And alchemy is the one crafting thing I love as is. But feel free to disagree.

The fixes for non scaling magic is fairly obvious to everyone except Bethseda and I won't repeat them again.

The "Well just don't use it argument" for crafting is so flawed. This isn't the same as people going out of their way to get a 100% chameleon armour/clothes/jewelery set or a 100% reflect damage or 100% spell absorption set like in Oblivion. This is people just playing the game and breaking it through making it too easy for them, even with the difficulty slider maxed, by using the crafting skills as they are now.

And conversely with the destruction magic issues the "Well boost your enchanting by making 1000 iron daggers and enchanting them for a 100% spell reduction set" is just as stupid. For exactly the same reason, it makes the game too easy and people like a challenge.

You mean the player making choices to how balance the game for themselves instead of the developer?

Yeah, case closed.

I digress, once again. You want to maximize your character and maintain a challenge. What the hell is the purpose of maximizing your character then? You want decision to not have consequences. Good or bad. Balanced or no balance.

Apparently (not personally confirmed) staves inherit perk bonuses. I don't think many people know this.

Yeah, but that does not make them special. That makes them zero mana spell casts that eat soul gems. If staves had for example weakness to magicka charges, it would be clear what their purpose is. You fight strong enemies ? You pull out a staff and zap them first.

Edit : Also staves should be able to block stuff. Click = cast, hold = block.

havent people considered using the difficulty inconjunction with there build. tweak it in line with your play style to find a happy medium, i thought that was the point after all, construct the level of challenge you require, it is a single player rp game after all who cares if your playing on novice as your mage and master as your warrior, if it makes the game fun untill beths patch in some changes or you find mods you like, do it.

I think you are confused by the illusion of choice when it comes to story telling in a video game, linear, one dimensional, or otherwise If you think your decision will impact the end of the game, you are wrong. The end of the game has already been scripted, no matter which choice you make. You have no control over how the story evolves. You can pick a predetermined path at a juncture but your still on a one way trip along a scripted series of events that will be based on you completing a task.

All video game stories telling methods are one dimensional. Do this task.... complete this objective. Its the same no matter what, no matter what illusion of choice you have in the game. You will still have a task to complete that takes you through scripted events. You can complain about the story they present and how they present it, but suggesting its "one dimensional" is logical as its a flaw with all RPG games by nature of rhe limitations of video games and AI not having imagination or spontaneity to truly randomize the outcome towards a non scripted ending.

Whomever wrote that the problem was that the level and skill tree system pushes you into levelling secondary skills had it almost right.

In my view, the problem is levelling all on it's own. It doesn't really matter what skills you choose to level with, if you want to level, you have to pick a variety of skills. For most, this will naturally involve picking a combat skill and crafting of some type. Without doing research on which perks *not* to pick, it's very difficult to both level and not create something that's overpowered by level 25

If I wanted to play a straight up dual-wield warrior, I would be levelling only 1h and my armor skill. Through natural use, I might get a few skillups in Speech and Lockpicking. Doing it this way limits my character to ~20 levels before I max my chosen skills and simply stop levelling. I am also nowhere near having enough perks to fill in both the 1h and armor trees. If I want to level more (and I do - the desire to level is ingrained in everyone these days) I will naturally choose skills that seem to be somewhat related to the theme of my character - crafting. You don't need to go very far down the crafting path before the game difficulty really starts to suffer. The same thing happens no matter which combat direction you choose.

Now, if you choose to not level - at all - and play as a level 1 on master, the game is incredibly difficult without power-levelling skills (and even quite hard with them levelled). Forgo all the levels, and the game is always challenging.

So the choice appears to be:
1. Level naturally and create an overpowered monster.
2. Research how not to play, and build a balanced character.
3. Don't level at all and force challenge.

If Skyrim was based on a Major / Minor leveling system like the previous games. Players would be able to pick say 6-7 major trees, level them up, and recieve all the perks simply through leveling up their major skills. But, that would make it even easier than the current system (with perks inplace).. However, it would limit the ability to spread perks around, and with Bethesda throwing in all these crappy perk trees like lockpicking, no one would ever have the need to level it up or perk it out. Bethesda's quick fix? All skills will look used by end game! Additional chores to make the game seem more thought-out... All skills are now major skills and in order for the player to achieve maximum "attributes / perks" for his 6 skills, he must then level up all 18 skills.... The new system is broken!..

With the old system (attributes, and major / minor skills) in combination with the new system. We would beable to make more classes, and guesse what, mages would have viable scaling intellegence skill to allow them to hone in on being an uber nuke. But for the cost of not being able to fight well. Where some players may choose to a less powerful mage that can also hold his own in a fight (arcane warriors, monks, paladins, etc..)

And yes, I do understand the perk system is inplace of attributes, and adding in attributes might seem like a double stack of stats, but perks without attributes would just be mechanics without power. And I actually think that gives us more variety and playablity. Im not going to make 3 warriors in a 200 hour game, so I will now never experience duel weilding, or two-handers, period. It will never happen. That's pretty dumb considering my character is a warrior and a master of strength, but he can't swing a 2 hander to save his life. Even better, he struggles with 1 handed swords, but can crush through armor with 1 handed maces?

Even know I always make my own custom class in TES, I always liked seeing the viable combinations Bethesda put together in the presets. You know what I mean?! They kinda tease you with "look at all the possibilities in class combinations!!" Now it's, "figure it out for yourself we don't give a !$#^$# anymore!" And once you do, your like crap! Warrior mage or thief. ok warrior!, ok now pick, "1 handers, 2 handers or duels". now pick the oviously warrior choice skills and your done! (no thought required. accept quests and go!). There are 3 classes with options with barely any wiggle room, rather than these crazy ass eleaborate hybrids of limitless combinations (Through tweaking / combining attributes and abilities that define and grow tailored to the style of play desired). No reason to level up destruction unless you choose too, but in skyrim that's 5 perks your going to miss out on for your warrior build.... "face palm"

Sad system really... Even know daggerfall had alot of [censored] vague, elaborate amount of choices, it made the player think (good times, thinking was fun!), eff up, restart, plan, and hone in on a really fricken unique build. and guesse what. Quick note: Classes in TES were the definition of your ROLL, In playing the game. Kinda like an RPG right? And you don't get that in skyrim, It's roll playing abilities has been dumbed down to 3 options.. I really miss having too stratigically play around with the system for a while until I defined my uinique roll in this world. Once that was set, I was ready to for my journy. Skyrim skips all that and gets you maxing blacksmithing in minutes.

Bethesda, If im not making real roll playing choices in a game like this (good / bad, help / betray) it's because iv'e already determined my "roll" with some crazy elaborate formula I conducted through a unique roll building feature. Well guesse what, you forgot both this time around!

What's next, hold (A) for 5 seconds to scroll through skills, remove armor completely, and add good / bad choices? Cause right now it's feeling like the 3 fable classes are taking over for the signature 20+ optional rolls to play in TES roll playing game series.

Quite clear to me that the gameplay has been undercooked/lacked focus compared to the look and feel.

I suspect the high level stategic brief from management is/was:

- graphics/physics engine need to be updated to be 2011 cutting edge
- USP / Wow factor will be Dragons
- all character interaction will be voice-overs, dialogue will be extensive and a large part of game experience
- simpify character creation skills further to make the game more accessable to wider audience

And lets face it, they nailed all those elements and they are a significant part of why the game is a good game and great value for money.

Unfortunately gameplay has yet again fallen by the wayside though compared to the look and feel. Probably the No1. issue the flagship developers have. With simple retro style games back in fashion due to the prevalance of mobile devices with limited computing power, we have all seen successes like Angry Birds which are triumphs of gameplay over snassy cutting edge graphics.

For a long time the industry has been very lazy following a stategy of ever improved and more improved graphics and life-like games. Suddently they need to return to the core of what they are supposed to be doing and create great gameplay first and foremost, the other things are the icing on the cake.

Anyone saying "move the slider" is totally missing the point. This is at its heart a roleplay game. As soon as you stop role-playing and have to start thinking about dodgy game mechanics, unrealistic implications of your skill choises vs level scalling and adjusting sliders, your whole immersion and connection with your character are brutal ripped apart. We all know that underneath the hood these games are tables and modifiers - the reason RPG is huge now and not just "nerds" in the basemant playing D&D is that computers can hide all that for you and make it feel real. The shortcoming in this game unfortunately force you to look under the hood and when you do that the game and the game world just loses so much authenticity. I can't believe Beth will be happy with these flaws and I suspect they will work on them as major part of the improvements for the next release.

Now while I would prefer it otherwise, (as better balanced from the outset), simply don't craft before it's balanced by mod or official patch.

Crafting is just a tiny bit of the game experience, it's not dramatic at all to simply not do it. The rest of mentioned issues is fine with me as destruction is just one complementary mage skill and illusion prior to 100 is not affecting really mean enemies. Btw the combat is much les e xploitable than e.g. Oblivion. AI pathfinding and alternative strategy (run, heal up, hide) routine for dealing with height differences/boulders could use some upgrade though.

Hmm, my problem is, that after playing this game from different perspectives, I have never once come close to maxing out a skill by "accident" until many levels in the future. I simply cannot comprehend how you could max 100 smithing, enchanting, alchemy. Maybe if I experience this I will have an epiphany regarding this issue, but I suspect, its a non-issue for most people, but hopefully you can understand why, in conjunction with my post a few posts ago why I don't see it needing to be fixed. Its only a problem if you trying to grind it as far I can see. As noted earlier, reports that a bit of dungeon crawling and they maxed it out, doesn't match my own experiences.. you'd have to be carrying a LOT of iron there, last time I checked it was close to 500.

So you accidentally, brutally crafted 500 daggers, disenchanted and enchanted an absolute ton of items, and thousands of potions and broke your game before level 20. Excuse me if I take this with a pinch of salt. Theres nothing particularly wrong with the diminishing returns argument, and to a certain extent I wouldn't be upset if they implemented, I just don't feel it affects as many people as it is being made out to be.

Then we move on to "I don't want to bind myself with articificial restrictions", and yet ask for a harder difficulty level which is even MORE artificially restrictive by having uber mudcrabs of death than simply not using the best weapons. Its just a difference in the devs restricting you, and yourself, and frankly I trust myself to build my own experience than someone who doesn't know me.


Can you elaborate, because any response to this is going to sound strange.

"Destruction magic is not powerful enough, making my game too hard, but could you not make the game any easier because I like a challenge".

I know that sounds dismissive, so please clarify before taking that above sentence literally. But I do refer to my earlier post in regards to "balancing skills" if its just a matter of "butttt, my warrior does more damage than my mage at level massive+"

I deliberately pushed for ebony armor on my orc (he's only recently moved to dragonplate). He has limited/no enchanting and alchemy is under 20. He was extremely powerful. Mid level 30's so not end game and on the default difficulty as it was my first character.

Is he broken? No, I don't think so but take that with the addition of these facts:

My shouts are NEVER used (except the whirlwind one for fast moving)
I've only ever had to pot once in a fight (stupid dragon wouldn't land for aaaages until I realised it didnt have room to and I ran to an open area and it landed)
I've not enchanted my kit, I've not poisoned my weapons
I don't have a companion
I have not yet encountered a boss I could not utterly decimate by pressing berserk.


I'm having fun with him, I achieved what I wanted to (getting rid of crap armour) but I'm well aware that I'm not utilising anywhere near his full potential, I suspect were I to bother using that not even the higher difficulty levels would have posed an issue, up to the point he is at now.


A problem? Not for me, I'm thoroughly enjoying him - but it's my account of how, by making logical progression, (I want better armour, this stuff is rubbish) I've put him at a pretty damned high power level without really trying overly hard to do so. Yes, I levelled smithing deliberately and no I'm not complaining but it DEFINITELY put me more powerful than I expected.

So how do you propose one balances the game for people who min/max? Because, outside of Destruction magic, the only "balance issues" is with people who min/max and become god like.

If you set out to be god like, don't be surprised when you become that way.

Setting out to be godlike, for me - would be looping ench/smith/alc.

Actually becoming nearly godlike takes little more than natural [warrior] progression.

Make a weapon, sharpen it and enchant it.
Make armour, fortify it and enchant it.
Go hit stuff in the face

It's not exactly the bleeding edge of nouveau warrior stratagems is it?

I don't know ... it seems that min maxing means using crafting profession in Skyrim. For example I will do a warrior, ofc I will create my own armor, but without enchanting the armor is useless since it lacks all the goodies vendor stuff has. So I will do enchanting as well. Bam, you just min maxed your character.

What, are you playing on the easiest difficulty? I am on Adept, playing exactly in the fashion you describe, and only the weakest things (low level bandits, undead, etc) make me feel godlike. Bosses, high level mobs, certain traps, and pretty much all casters can wreck my [censored] up if I try to fight them as if I was impervious to everything. Especially against mobs that can Shout and disarm me since I'm only skilled in swinging my axes around. Then you have guys that paralyze, knock you into ragdoll, get lucky instant kill crits, etc.

I specifically linked definitions of min/maxing, that I (and nearly everyone I've ever gamed with) would agree with. So yes - to me, "min/max" means to figure out the "best"/most powerful ways to do something in a game - preferably ones that include abusing any synergies or twists of math & game rules - to gain maximum power/ability. Powergaming, being a munchkin, etc. Becoming "overpowered" is the assumed goal.

Again, http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MinMaxing. And again - nearly every person I've played games with (pen and paper RPGs, tabletop wargames, miniatures games, etc) over the past 30 years would agree with those descriptions.

Maybe it's a side effect of MMO's being around for so long, since "end game" play (raiding/pvp/whatever) is pretty much all about min-max in those circles. Perhaps that's made people think it's something that's supposed to be good.

I posted warrior experiencesa couple of posts above. He's on a break just now whilst I run about on my mage; I like starting over once I have a better handle on the game. I'll get back to him eventually but the mage I found to be much more ...engaging due to choices of how to do things. Warrior was (as designed to be fair) pure: HULK SMASH)

Yes - it's that and simply that the term has stuck - MMOs lack one major facet of min/maxing though: there's never anything to MIN.

Absolutely.

But most people here are not wanting to change the way the game is. Skyrim is different from most RPGs, specially online ones, and we really want it to stay that way. The main concern is only that a few basic RPG features is simply missing. Even pen and paper RPGs, where there is absolutely no competition and 100% is roleplaying, have some sort of balanced rules and mechanics. So why a computer game where only 50% is supposed to be about roleplaying should be so imbalanced?

I think you just put your finger on the problem. Your character concept initially was that, although you didn't mention them specifically, your character already is used to wearing high level armours and is dismayed at what was available, so he went out on a quest to make his own.

That makes perfect sense. You've grinded (with character reason) to obtain armour that doesn't appear naturally until mid-late levels, ebony being what.. level 80 to unlock?

I disagree this is 'natural', although certainly natural to your character concept, so this problem perhaps occurs more readily with those who don't gravitate to natural storytelling linearity (ooh evil word.. but hang with me). The theory of a monomyth is pretty well know, but I'll summarise from wikipedia;


This is just a theory, to throw out there, I'm not demanding I'm right... but is it possible the issues with 'powergaming by accident' is caused by skipping steps in standard fantasy narrative progression through character concept? I need those who 'accidentally' minmaxed to confirm if their character concept avoided the storyline people feel comfortable with. For instances, by achieving the great gift (powerful weaponry far in excess to what the game throws at you) before facing the tasks and trials you feel cheated?

Any thoughts on this?

No skill become's maxed out by 'accident'. You use a skill it increases, the more important a skill is to your 'build' the more you use and the more it gets used the faster it levels. Skyrim skills 101. And I never said I had maxed them all out (Smithing, Enchanting and Alchemy) I maxed smithing out on one save, as most people have, and then found the even on master the game was easy, not unexpected, but it should never have been allowed to happen.

Because of all the raging about leveled lists in Oblivion Bethesda went nuts on the removal of any form of leveled progression, with the exception of a few quest rewards and the dungeon locking system. This is in all likelihood why the spells don't get more powerful as you level. But this 'no leveled list' fanaticism has left us with the problem that you can just make iron daggers over and over again til you hit 100 when clearly the XP added to a skill for a given item should reduce as you skill increases.

I don't understand your point. It's not about people rushing to get smithing to 100 buy buying iron and leather. You could easily do it, over a longer time frame, just by mining and hunting. The point is that iron anything should not given any xp towards skill up past Smithing 40 or even lower. And my point was that sort of game balancing, or restriction, should never be put onto the players. Bethesda made a rather terrible design choice at some point and they should either fix it or release the damn Construction Kit so we can attempt to do so ourselves.


My point on the magic front was that in order to use Destruction as your offensive damage dealing thing, not an unreasonable idea, effectively at high levels you need to have massive amounts of % reduction to costs. Massive to a level that is similar to the Oblivion 100% Chameleon/Damage Reflect/Spell Absorption. Which was something most people didn't like and something Bethesda went out of their way to eliminate. In short in order to use Destruction at high level you are forced to use what is essentially God Mode, which is again a god awful design decision on Bethesda part.