This is a fallacious argument, he's saying that "people enjoy different things" cannot be argued, and it can't.

Here is what people in favor of 'balance' want:

-A reasonable correlation between effort invested and power.
-Choices between many different playstyles that can give you similar levels of power.
-At least some parts of the game that will challenge ANYONE, even if they took every possible means to increase the power of their character.

Yes, we want parts of the game to be so hard that we remove the 'choice' of someone making a character that can breeze through the entire game. I want that person to be limited by the game so that they can only breeze through most of the game and still have a hard time with certain content (think of optional superbosses like the Weapons in FF7, or an even harder difficulty setting than master).

So, sorry to that guy who wants everything to be easy even at the highest difficulty. I don't know if that guy even exists, and I suspect he's a strawman.

I cheated and now I feel bad!
My friends don't take me seriously when I say I beat the game on Master!
So restart the game Bethesda! Restart it for everyone please!
I won't find a different way to cheat this time I promise!
But if I do I'm going to blame you and ask you to change it and restart everything!

Not a bit, either you'r "maxing out" your weps, or you play bad advised. Both isn't fun.

We can't magically change the way we have fun. Unless we're really young or something, by this point in our lives it is hardwired into our brain.

So OF COURSE we will lobby Beth to make a game that suits us. There is nothing wrong with that!

We will lobby and you will lobby, and I hope my side wins. End of story.

I'm trying to point out the uselessness of people trying 'argue' the other side into 'seeing the light'. It won't happen. We'll both push our personal visions of what a good game is and hope Beth listens to us and not the other guy.

We can argue if you disagree, but at least have the courtesy of comming up with argument. Just freely insulting me just makes you look immature and you loose all credibility.

Back on the subject at hand: this is not only about the weapon exploits. Yes, on my first character, I actually leveled them up without knowing anything about the exploit, because as a 2h Orc warrior, I did not have that many points to place in my main branches and those three trees are the only ones really able to boost your melee damage other then combat skills. In other words: I would actually argue that it is very intuitive to level all three crafting skills as a melee character.

Now you can argue that I can just not use them, but that basically comes down to proving my original point, which was that I had to build my character around how hard I want to play the game, and not around how I actually wanted to play it.


And that also leaves the other issues like the magic system not scaling, which is pretty big.

Why should it matter to you how other people play? Cascading abilities and synergy are one thing people have been wanting back from Morrowind. Let them have it.

You can't reasonably create a challenge for these people. They're a minority and expending extra resources just to give them unique content is a waste of time. Just let them enjoy the absurd power levels and move on.

It isn't about how other people play, it's about how I play.

I want to exert the max effort in making my character powerful, and I want to exert that effort in overcoming a challenge designed for a character of that power.

Yes, I'm selfishly lobbying for what I personally want in a game. There is nothing wrong with that.

If I am a tiny minority, what I want will not get catered to, or it will get catered to in a mod. That's fine. If many other people share my needs then they will speak up and maybe we will get catered to. That is also fine.

I'm not going to whine if it turns out I'm a minority and they don't cater to me. But I see nothing wrong with expressing what I want.

Again my friend, you are just proving my point:

I have to build my toon according to how hard I want the game to be, instead of building it according to how I want to play it.

There is a difficulty slider. Why not use it? Want to feel powerfulL? Go in novice. Want a challenge? Go in master. You can both have god mode and non-god mode, and yet all builds can also be viable. Yet apparently I am the one asking them to restrict people's gameplay......

The title of this thread is good proof that proper manners on the internet is a thing of the past.

Basing your opinion as fact isn't just wrong... it's absurd.

Cascading synergies isn't effort. It's an exploit that's simply not worth fixing.

If attention were to be drawn to it, it's not unique content you would get.

This goes back to:
You simply would not be getting that level of power. Your character would be brought closer to the other builds.

Absolutly agree. Thats my playstile, too

The powergamer argument only holds if otherwise the game would be unplayable or too hard. It's not.

^ You really arn't helping man. You are just being selfish here.

If you want a challenge, you should be able to get one, but if you want to breeze through it, you should also be able to. Thats what TES is about. They even already have a way to do it: its called a difficulty slider.

Well, in my opinion it is worth fixing But I guess we can agree to disagree.

Cascading synergies is not the only balance issue in Skyrim right now though.

The imbalances prevent people from being able to freely use all skills in the game. They become off limits, people have to strictly limit their character builds to avoid overpowering themselves. It removes those skills as choices for players who feel this way and it's a less satisfying way to play the game than if you could maximize your character without having to worry about making them so powerful the game becomes trivial even on the hardest difficulty.

It's never been about how other players are playing it, those of us who want balance really don't care about your exploiting/cheating or whatever you want to call it. However, we don't really have the options people who don't care about combat balance do. They can set the difficulty as low as it goes for the same end result as using these exploits, or they can even TGM if on PC, I don't care. But those who care about balance can't just ignore broken mechanics like they can ignore console command cheats or lower difficulty settings, because the mechanics that make these exploits possible are much more a part of the game. They're in the perk trees, they're on the items, they can't just be toggled off like God mode or a low difficulty setting.

WRONG!!!
If I want to play one specific playstyle, but it's the one that's underpowered but I don't *want* to be underpowered in such a way, IS THAT MY CHOICE? No! I wanted to play this playstyle but not have it really hard on me but the GAME DOESN'T ALLOW THAT!
Same goes Vise versa.

"If you choose to unbalance your character, then that is the choice you have made and you have to deal with it."
What If I choose a specific skill tree I want to play as but I don't want to be underpowered? But the skills I chose are the epitome of underpowered?
What If i don't want to be overpowered but still use these skills? Is that possible? No.

In some cases that might not be true, but that still doesn't really change the fact that it's still there. Sure you can use the console to uberfy yourse- wait no this guy is on the Xbox. No he can't.
Again...what you say is wrong in some cases.
/endrant

I agree with all points, and more.

I only had one rule when I started: No console command cheats (I play PC version)

But I quickly saw I had to add a lot more rules like:

No buying ore other cheap reagents from merchants

No making only iron daggers for smithing

No enchanting allowed

No using alchemy potions to boost smithing and such

No lol-Illusion

No auto-walking into a wall to max sneak while I am AFK for a couple hours

List goes on...

So sad

What if it is?

Right now, if I want the game to be hard enough on my melee toon, I have to balance it myself by not building my toon how I would otherwise do.
On the other hand, if I want the game to be playable on my mage, I need to turn into a summoner and grab Conj.

What if I want to be a nuker? "Oh too bad, thats not an option".

Do you see what I am getting at? The current situation's ONLY result is that it limits everyone in what build they can create.

For the sake of the game's integrity, if you choose a certain difficulty, then the game should strive to maintain that difficulty as much as possible regardless of how you build your character. It's common sense. If you want to feel overpowered, you can always opt for the novice difficulty. But those that enjoy balanced gameplay have no recourse because even on master many builds can one-shot monsters.

This. You all complain about becoming overpowered, but then you say at 100 enchanting or smithing or something. Hmmm, interesting. Does maxing a skill make you really powerful in that skill? NO WAY! If you don't like it, don't use the skill.

Sure the game has some minor balance issues overall, but they have yet to release any major patches. Give them a break and wait for the first big patch next week.

It doesn't seem like a very difficult problem to solve though. That's the ridiculous thing. But now that the game is out, I feel like Bethesda is tentative to touch anything because they don't want to alter the gameplay. And truthfully, the leveling system feels the same as Oblivions. My character stays exactly the same as he levels up, I have no sense that he is getting any stronger. And that's what I miss about Morrowind. And of course, being a console player, I can't fix this problem. Great.

^ This. If you dont mind, I'll use part of that in my original post

i dont think beth have ever made post release balance changes to a game, so you might as well find a way to enjoy it if you cant have mods.

i think though if you didnt read how to "unbalance" the game on this forum, and had just played it through, you probably would have been fine. when you just sit down and play the game without comparing notes with everyone else, its actually balanced pretty well, and that's why i don't think they'll change it.

after all, the other X million people that are just playing the game without scrutinising the forums for ways to "unbalance" the character seem to be loving it

Elder Scrolls, Challenging? When? Also, Destruction Magic is suppose to be patched to scale the week after Thanksgiving.