Fair enough. Now here is what I would like you know:

On the points I raised, why do you believe that it is all balanced? What is your rationale behind a non-scaling system in a scaling game being fine?

One liners are useless, anyone can throw them at any time. Its the arguments behind them we are interested in.

I have not heard anything about that information in the patch...

Here is why Skyrim needs re-balancing...

- Dragon appears...
"Yawn... Dragon... Did you catch the Pit Fight last night, (insert companion name here)?"

- Bandit Leader appears...
"OH CRAP!... IT'S A FRICKIN' BANDIT LEADER... RUN FOR YOUR LIFE! WE'RE ALL GONNA DIE!!!!"

The only thing I have to say is... I wish you had purchased it on a PC. I always buy TES games for the PC, because they always have this problem. I knew that going in, I knew mods were the only thing that were going to make the game play the way I like it to play. The day they announce that a TES game will not have a Constrution Kit will be the day I divorce myself from buying TES games.

I know they really pushed consoles in their marketing, but sometimes consumers have to look past the marketing at what the product really is, and what it's really likely to be capable of.

No, I would not tell them not to use it. I just would not play on their map if the gun was killing me too easily. In this game, it does not matter if my sword kills a dragon in 1/4 of a swing or it takes 20 minutes of flailing around, it does not effect anyone else.

In an open game like Skyrim I'm OK with being able to build a really strong character or a weak character if that's your goal. I don't really think you should happen on either extreme by accident though and should be having to try hard to work against the system to do this.

I think that most reasonably buil "mostly fighters" && "mostly mages" && "warrior mage hybrids" should yield about the same level of annoyance completing the game content.

Note: If some system seems "stupid" on its face whether it's strong, weak, or well balanced should be changed to something "less stupid".

You need to have some form of scaling within a game, otherwise it either gets too hard or too easy. I think Skyrim has the perfect balance for at least the 1st 40 levels. After that the only enemies you need to worry about are dungeon bosses and the Elder Dragon if your careless against him. As for Crafting, Enchanting, Smithing, those skills will always give someone an edge if they use it. It's better then what it was in Morrowind and Oblivion where you really could break your character, now with Skyrim it's a little harder to do so.

I hear you. In my case tho I went for console because my tower is completely busted and I cant exactly spend much mid-term, so until next summer all I got is an xbox and a laptop. And trust me, Intel Family Chipset doesnt cut it o.o

thank the divines its not borderlands easy.

You're right. In fact we're here discussing very old stuff. I said it already in another thread that Skyrim has its flaws, but it's an amazing base for community go wild on upgrades.

This is no different than the level scaling and immortal npcs they have running around. It limits fun.

The base game is awesome [so big yet well polished!!]. As for the PC it's the definitive platform for this sort of a game [and I'm an XBox guy but you gotta give credit to the PC Platform].

Except this is a 81 levels game. Yes, you can still kill everything, but it takes longuer and longuer as you progress, until it gets so ridiculous you reroll. A skill that doesnt scale for half the game can hardly be called a perfectly balanced skill.

Ok. And now try to reallize that we are all playing the same game, meaning that if it takes you 1/4 of a swing, it also takes everyone else who chose the same perks 1/4 of a swing. It does affect everyone, you just cannot see it because its not a direct interaction.

EDIT:
The game was sold on consoles. It is not supposed to be a base for the community to upgrade, it is supposed to be a finished product. That is what I paid for. Legaly, at least in Canada, that is what they are bound to sell.

Put in the first post this, somewhere...

The fact that: How is there freedom of choice when some things are simply superior in every way?


This fact is far easier to see in multiplayer games since people max out their capabilities in desperate efforts to win.

See the thing is that I have a problem with is that people are saying if you don't want to be "powerful" and want a "challenge" (quotation marks because it's subjective to interpretation) avoid these skills, or don't use this, this, and this in conjunction with one another.
I should be able to use a play-style and still have a reasonable challenge.

If I decide to let's say play using smithing, enchanting, with heavy armor, and dual wield swords my play through should still be a challenging as my character that focuses on dropping lethal poisons in enemies pockets. Now the reason I say that it should be as challenging is because of the difficulty meter, the first one should still be hard to succeed at on the hardest difficulty while the second may force me to play on an easier one . But the first build will trivialize the difficulty no matter where it's placed that's poor design.
That's what the OP has a problem with (as do I) when a combination of abilities trivializes the hardest difficulty it's not right, I wouldn't have a problem with abilities making the normal or above normal difficulty relatively easy as long as there's the chance to be knocked on it's ass on the hardest setting.

Now go ahead and pick this apart and say I'm whining or what not I really don't care, flame away mates
because poor design is poor design

*I do apologize though for any incoherency do to grammar or punctuation.*

Agreed. And this is only the tip of the ice berg. For now, we should wait for the first patch, and then trust that the modding community will work something out once the creation kit gets released. It's a shame that they can't figure these things out for themselves, but at least we can change them.

Unless you play on a console, of course. Sorry.

To those that don't like level scaling I admit it's not perfect but in a game similar to Skyrim it works really well for me. If I run into something that's too tough I know I can go away, come back later, and I should be fine.

No you dont. Most rpgs dont and they balance the game just fine. Level scaling completely ruins the point of there being a leveling system.

You're right that would be absurd.

But the crafting loop is a single balance issue among many. I don't think it is the main complaint people have about balance at all. It is a tiny issue that people like to strawman to paint everyone critical of balance as a bunch of exploiters.

There is nothing in the game sufficiently challenging for someone who merely tried to make the best character they could without exploiting any crafting synergies or loops whatsoever.

I agree with the OP but I would go one step further, Skyrim is too easy no matter what you do
My limited time with this game was perhaps 35-40 hours and I played as a fighter and as a mage without crafting perks and both playthroughs I found far too easy. The game comes across as a straight up beat em up, you get power ups when you level and the world levels wiith you so you never will find a challenge. If you play the game for advertised 300 hours then certain , not really play styles but your choice of beat em up style can become broken. clearly Bethesda was not making this game to appeal to players who would dedicate more then 35 hours and why would they after 35 hours only certain people would want to keep playing.
I did two playthroughs to get an idea of what the two beat em up mechanics played like, there are also a few quests that have two options to them so I got to see that.
I can see why people who want to play Skyrim for extended time and uncover broken leveling mechanics would get upset but my advice would be to look into much more deeper games that offer replaybility outside of chopping wood and killing the upteenth bandit

I will grant you that the game is flawed when it comes to Destruction tree. There are a couple of mods that make ice, fire and lightning alright for general play but forget about using them against dragons. However, in Morrowind and Oblivion it was just the opposite. You could spam lightning and wipe out all the city guard easily. I didn't even bother carrying a sword or using a bow in either in later parts of those games.

Really I can live with all of that...for me its being forced to go along with idiot NPCs that don't deserve to be leaders. Why can't I rid Riften of the Thieves Guild? Why can't I kill a Jarl and put someone else in power? Why can't I convince a Jarl to support the Imperials or Stormcloaks without having to attack their city? If I can singlehandedly take down a dragon why aren't they worried about which side I am supporting? For that matter how come I can walk into an Imperial held city once I help the Stormcloaks take Whiterun? These things are bigger issues to me then game balance. Because I bought this game for the role-playing aspect. Combat just gets in the way of my role-playing. So the sooner I kill the people in my way the sooner I can get to plot; which so far is svcking! Anyway, that's why I get a little put out when people go on about crafting, magic or sneak being too uber. I suppose we all have our different reasons for why we play the Elder Scroll and I was just hoping for something a little more versatile in what is toted as an RP game.

That's a bit offtopic, but yes you do need level scaling in a OPEN world rpg, otherwise u would just turn it into a liniar rpg that gently's tells you to go X -> Y -> Z according to your level. And besides many npc's have a max lvl 'cap' so u will become stronger then them.

Actually thats very short-sighted.

Most RPG are not sandboxes. The levels are pre-scaled, and the gameplay is linear, so that you have to do Zone A before Zone B before Zone C, and the mobs in the levels are preset accordingly to the level the game dictates you should be at when you get there.

In a Sandbox, level scaling is a necessity. Its the -only- way to have an open world where you can go freely while always having a good amount of challenge. Otherwise you would just have dungeons that are undoable, and others that you can breeze through by farting at the mobs.

Look at it another way: would you say leveling is useless in traditional RPGs since monsters are always stronger in the next zone?

Now back on topic plz

Yes why. It's awful.

Leveling can be good. But it can also svck. Having easy dungeons, intermediate, and hard are essential for a fun game. It's irritating seeing a bandit in full glass armor and it's also irritating that I can't kill a freaking bandit because of bad leveling. Skyrim doesn't seem to have that problem.

And for those who think it's too easy? Well put restrictions if you're on console. It's not my problem, it's Bethesda's problem now. Besides, some people do like this game as it is and it's unfair for them if Bethesda "fixes" it. Really, all they need to do is make the difficulty sliders more drastic.