Crafting is out of control: If i want to make a warrior and still have a challenge, I can't use all three crafting professions (and even 2 is iffy). The synergies between them are so powerfull that they make the very idea of min/maxing as a type of gameplay completely absurd. You cannot take the best character developpement decisions, the ones you know you need to be the best at what you are doing, without turning the game into Hello-Kittie-Adventure as far as difficulty goes.

Destruction is a flippin' joke: The tree does not scale! That means that, unlike every single other combat ability in the game, there is a point after which you will -never- hit harder, while everything keeps scaling up. What that means is that we have a situation where a destruction mage, at a certain level, will actually do more damage with -unperked- bows then with -fully perked- destruction spells. Now it wouldn't be a that big a deal if that level was very late, but that level is 35. On a game with 81 levels in total, you will always hit as hard as a level 35 mage.

What that means is that mages are forced to turn themselves into summoners by taking up conjuration, effectively completely changing the gameplay and restricting their possible options. And guess what: Even that doesn't scale!

Illusion trivalizes the game: Here is a skill I am quite happy to see finally shine... except they overdid it! It trivializes all form of content, same as crafting synergies. The problem is that there is no element of damage nor resistance involved. What that means is that once you have the master spells and the appropriate perks, you can just invis in, frenzy, invis out and grab a popcorn. Then just calm + shoot the last man standing. Nothing can resist it, nothing can counter it, nothing can mitigate it. With destruction spells you need to kite, with arrows you sneak, with weapons you need to stagger them first if they have a shield or are blocking, etc. Illusion is an "IWIN" button; the only strat is "press it".

There is no incentive to ever wear robes: Even as a mage, there is absolutely no reason whatsoever to wear more then a single piece of robes, because you gain absolutely nothing from wearing them over a light armor piece with the same enchant. If I have a cloth glove with -20% cost to Destruction spells, and a light armor with -20% cost to Destruction spells, then there will never be a question that the Light armor piece will be superior. Sure there is the Alteration perk, but again, the mage issue: it stops scaling really fast, and then falls behind. Hell, all the masks (best mage helmets) in the game are Light Armor!

As it stands the only Cloth piece worth wearing over anything else is the Robes from the College quest line, because you cannot reproduce its stats through other means.

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I keep reading on this forum about how the game is supposed to be about Choice...

Then why is it that every time someone brings up any of these points they are told to just not use them? So far, if I had listened to these boards, I would say that I cannot use: Enchanting, Smithing, Alchemy, Illusion, Destruction, Sneak and Dual Wield. Those are just the ones that I have personally read here.

Doesn't that actually restrict my choices considerably?!?

Yes, you should be able to become God if you want to, but you should also be able to have a good level of challenge as well if you want to. You should not have to restrict your own options to keep the game interesting, if anything, that is sort of killing it for me (as in, my opinion, I know its not everyone's).

Isnt there already a difficulty bar setting?!?

What is the point of there being a difficulty setting if the acutal in-game difficulty is dictated by wether you chose the OP or the UP build? You want the game to be very easy? Shouldn't you obtain that by putting the setting on "very easy" ("Novice")? You want the game to be very hard? Shouldn't you obtain that by putting the setting on "very hard" ("Master")?

TD;LR: Why do I have to balance the game for the devs? Why do I have to chose how to build my character in function of how hard I want the game to be instead of how I want to play?

Yes, there will be mods. Tons and tons of mods. I play on Xbox. I will never get to use a single one of them, yet I paid the same price for my game.

P.S. sorry for the typing/grammar/spelling mistakes, english is not my first language.

EDIT:

While I agree with you, plenty of people will disagree because they don't think they paid Bethesda to balance the game.

Let's kick this thread off with this public service announcement:

PEOPLE HAVE FUN IN DIFFERENT WAYS. NOBODY IS 'RIGHT' OR 'WRONG' ABOUT HOW THEY HAVE FUN.

Some people can have fun in a game that is not balanced by the devs.

Some people would have a lot more fun if the devs balanced the game.

NEITHER SIDE IS WRONG. YOU CANNOT 'ARGUE' ABOUT THIS.

You cannot tell me "limit yourself and it will all be ok" because that's not how my brain works. Sorry, it just isn't. I am not you. And conversely I cannot tell you "there's no way you can be having fun with these broken game systems" because clearly you are having fun. I may not understand it, but I am not you.

People are going to come in here and spout [censored] like "this is a singleplayer game it doesn't need balance". For you it doesn't need balance. But guess what buddy, other people are NOT YOU. They have fun in different ways. For other people single player games do need balance. You might not understand it. That's fine. It's really hard to understand how other people think. But don't come in here and assume that the way you think and the way you have fun is the 'right' way and everyone who has fun differently is wrong.

This is my thoughts on some of the issues mentioned.

http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1288301-new-leveling-system/

I suspect we will see a big change in the next patch, I hope so anyway.

This topic is new.

Protip... quit maxing out your weps by using alchemy and enchanting to give yourself uber-weapons.

The choice is yours....

Actually you probably paid more as PC games, at least here in England tend to be about ￡10 less than console games..... not rubbing it in just saying

This reply is new.

Protip... quit replying to threads without prior reading the contents therein.

The choice is yours....

This game is all about choices. If you choose to unbalance your character, then that is the choice you have made and you have to deal with it. If you choose to make a weak character, then you have to deal with that too. Don't see why the game has to take away both ends of the spectrum for everyone. It's not like how you play the game in any way effects how I play the game.

Otherwise, if Bethesda was to determine what my character can and can't do, then why give me a skills menu? Just tell me what new things I can do at each level up then I don't have to waste time trying to figure out the best place to put that Perk so it will benefit the role I have chosen for my character.

No, you didn't.

You bought the game after it was completed.

Well, TES games have never been balanced. Specially nowadays when TES is becoming arcady. Modders have a lot work ahead of them. At the pc forum the author of OOO said that Beth did many stuff right this time and we should enjoy the game as is for now. He might do something for Skyrim later perhaps. I can't wait. That guy really knows what balance is.

I guess you didn't read my public service announcement in the 2nd post of the thread.

For some people having to self limit reduces enjoyment of the game.

You can't argue this. It is a fact. We enjoy games differently than you. You can't just say "no really, self limitation is totally fine" and the way our brains work will magically change. It is fine for you. You are not us. It is not fine for us.

Get this through your heads people.

Thats kinda the point...

"Completed" means it has been balanced. A game that has not been balanced is like a game without textures: an unfinished product. That is why both are tolerated in online games: they are considered unfinished products as they always get updated and changed.

This is a game that was released on two consoles. It is supposed to be a finished product. No one is asking for perfect balance, thats impossible to achieve, but this is beyond acceptable. When the unbalance renders your own difficulty slider completely moot, you should know something is wrong.

How many times do I need to read the same whine from the same whiners over and over and over and over and over and over and over again?

*yawn*

Crafting's overpowered because I exploit the snot out of it

Mage's are stuffed because I don't play smart

Boring, boring, boring.

This thread is perfect.
OP I love you.

If you feel the need to use the very best, go ahead. I'm content using my helmet that resembles the Dovahkiin hat from the promotions. I don't care that it's not the best. I have had better helmets, and you know what I did with them? I sold them for potions or put them on display.

Imbalance is not the end of the world, but I agree with the OP that an imbalanced game becomes boring. Obviously the devs were pretty occupied making this huge world, which is really amazing I have to say, and didn't have time to test everything regarding the systems design.

Currently I have to impose myself some restrictions to have fun and feel challenged, such as not using crafting skills, but self imposed limits is not as charming as forced external limits. One of the goals in playing a game is to overcome the challenge imposed by the devs. But now the challenge is imposed by myself, and this becomes so boring. It's almost like playing chess against yourself.

Anyway, I'm still having fun for now. And luckily I play on the PC.

Yes, that statement can be argued. You're basically saying that because some players cannot self-control their use of skills and methods that overpower a character, the game should by technical means make that choice for you. What, then, about the people who want to play a demi-god character by making decisions that deliberately do overpower the character? In essence, you are against choice and freedom because you can't handle choice and freedom.

I don't stack alchemy/enchanting/smithing on my character because I know it would ruin the game for me. You don't "accidentally" stack those, as even leveling them naturally takes a lot of effort. But I don't mind that people can do that if they so wish. It doesn't affect me. I also don't feel every character build or combat style must be equal. This is not a competitive MMORPG.

There's a rather sincere problem with theorycraft. You know how all this stuff stop scaling?

So do the enemies.

None of that has anything to do with the content of my post. Please just read it next time, it is really frustrating to have people flame you for things you are not saying.

I agree 100% with this view

When we criticize balance some people knee jerk and assume we are saying the game is bad or something, and then get all defensive and it goes downhill from there. But the game is great, we're just saying that for us it would be more fun if it were balanced.

Agreed. If any of us is here posting, it is not because we hate this game: if we did, we would just not play it and go do something else. We are posting here because we do love this game, but are still able to see issues in it that we believe deserves discussing and fixing.

Hahha same jokers yelling at the top of thier lungs. Just because the game doesnt work how you want it to doesnt mean it is broken. OP reminds me of my son when he was 5 years old cying because his new model airplane didnt actually fly forever like the commercial.


Some words of wisdom...

"The empty can rattles the most"

So, once again, all people really want is for Bethesda to make a game specifically designed for their personal demands. Without enchanted apparel to bump up smithing, weps and armour are definitely not "uber", especially on Master. Anyone who says anything else is full of it.

If you can't NOT use exploits, then the problem isn't the game, it's you!

So... In summary the argument of this thread is 'The way you designed this game is not to my personal taste. Therefore I'm going to call it a bug. It isn't, of course. But You're NOT GOING TO STOP MEEEE!'?

Or at least that's how I read it.

First, crafting professions is out of control.

Second: Weapons scale extremly poorly with the skill.
You gain maybe 10% more damage from 1 to 100 in a skill. Maybe a tad more but not much more.
Your damage is gained from perks. And since with 2h or 1h you can get 100% damage from perks, AND get 50% on power attacks, 100% on dual wield power attacks, thats where the damage comes from.

Smithing alone causes melee to be too powerful, thats why I personally recomend players, that they CAN take smithing, just dont take perks more then the first perk, and the magic upgrade perk.
Keep smithing at medium rate, and if you make at max flawless weapons with no enchanting its still decent, but even then its borderline.

So mages view on melee scaling is wrong, its just that there are a lot of weapons out there with alot of damage.
90 damage on fireballs at its base is not weak.

Destruction is rather balanced but, it does require enchanting to keep up the mana flow, or that you have melee or conjuration to assist you.

I think however that what destruction needs, is to have a higher level of the basic spells.
The channeling damage spells are very good, a similar spell at adept and expert would make playing destruction alot easier in my opinion.

I started the game over with a woodelf, using bow and sneak, and a 2h sword as backup. I dont want a one hand since I dont plan to do sneak attacks more then with bow.
Yes, I can hit hard, but since I have no secondaries, I dont feel overpowered, I can one shoot with sneak attacks on expert some low life, but bandit leaders etc...on expert only, I might take out half life then I need to resort to a low skill 2h.
Im loving it.

One other thing why I went bow even though I know its rather powerful, is that you fire slow. If you get overwhelmed with enemies, you simply cant use the bow, you need a backup weapon, and I feel 2h for me atleast is nice.
I try and avoid health for now and just stack stamina, run in ofc light armor and the game is actually tough once the enemies pour in and I need to go toe to toe.

Instead I need to play very tactically, sneak in, take up a good spot, hopefully kill one and then move from there.

I recomend : Mages, get some enchanting for mana reg or lower spell cast, but dont overdo it.
For all others, get smithing only but take ONLY the first perk, for iron, so you can reach the 2nd perk at magic, then thats it. You can improve weapons pretty well but not overly well. 60 in smithing without perks will give you a feel that you can upgrade weapons and armor without overdoing it, and above all, you are still restricted to find your own armor most of the time.

And stay away from Dual Wield, unless you use daggers. It does redicilous amount of damage when you have the perks. Around twice as much as 2h.

You want a damage melee character and a challenge: Play a noord in light armor with a 2h, and skip professions but some mediocre smithing. And you will have a blast.
Or play a pure destruction mage, they are powerful but its quite hard in some encounters, without conjuration its very tough.
Or stealth archer or melee works just stay clear of enchanting and smithing.

If you want to be extremly powerful, the game lets you be that, its up to you.
And it IS up to everyone if we want to use the secondary professions or not.
Thats the freedom of choice we have.
Personally I like smithing and alchemy but am forced to stay clear of it unless I wont do anything for myself, which is also ok.
I use it mainly to incraese stolen armor so I can sell it for better prices.

I have started over this game 3 times now, where I had a charcter on 20+-
My first Orc was 33 when I had to leave him
My Destruction mage I felt was powerful but it simply did not suit my playstyle.

If Im not satisfied with my archer I will definately go 2h Noord, which is another fun challenge, if you wear light armor and no 2ndary skills.

In the end, its up to each and everyone. You can get a MASSIVE challenge if you want, or you can be overpowered as a God. its up to you.

Double edged blade.

The "all builds should be viable" concept promotes simplicity in order to actually work. Easier to account for. Easier to play. This draws complaints from the crowd that want complication and challenge.

Synergies provide a method for complication and smarter play, but can sometimes get out of hand. This makes the game more enjoyable for people who like the complication, but can trip up people who just want to go ahead and do stuff without thinking into it. They create builds that aren't as good, then complain that they don't compare.

Two crowds of people. You can't please them both completely.