The Dominion had forces in Hammerfell. Admittedly, Hammerfell isn't Cyrodil, but lets be clear: the Dominion still had a lot of troops. And the war had been fought on imperial soil, which means Cyrodil was a mess. Pushing into southern Hammerfell while defending Cyrodil might have succeed ... or being overextended could have resulted in the empire being utterly crushed. The two possibilities are not equal. Given a choice between retaining 75% of his empire, or throwing the dice and getting either 0% or 100% ... Obviously Titus Mede II is not a gambler.

Guess you've never played a khajiit; The high elves are the nicest race towards my character, the nords are most arrogant and offensive in dialogue.






Yah, I do believe a lot of people don't understand how military works. Just because you HAVE units available, it doesn't mean you're free to fight with them; you have to leave enough forces behind to secure your own territory, to keep the population in line and defend against possible counter attacks - when Mede surrendered his forces were down *50%* - 50% casualties in a catastrophic amount of damage, far exceeding the losses suffered in any Western conflict ever. Even if the empire had assisted hammerfell, at the end of it they would not have hadforces spare to garrison there and ensure it's long term security.

Heh. Try being an imperial, its just as bad.

To be honest, I don't much care for either side. When I finally have to choose, I'll just flip a coin.

Well of course. Elsweyr is part of the Dominion.

Agreed. Nazism is so much more than just blatant racism. It's a philosophy, a form of government, a model of economy and most of all is insanely centralized. Racial pride is just one little piece of it, the main focus of Nazism is corporatist economy, kinder küche kirche model for women and strict militarism.
There is no day when Stormcloaks or even Thalmor could compare with Nazism, and any comparison between then indicates that the user has no idea what he is talking about.


Likewise, the alleged "racism" is just one part of Stormcloak ideology.

That's the point though. Ulfrics entire rebellion is part of the thalmor plan it's supposed to make you feel like he's right and you should help him and demonize the empire so people will turn against the empire thus unknowingly aiding the thalmor. Ulfric isn't a 'former' thalmor agent he IS a thalmor agent. Elenwyn(The ambassador to skyrim) Is the very same person who interrogated(And eventually broke) him.The thalmor are simply staying 'hands off' so as not to compromise the delicate situation(It would obviously ruin ulfric if he were seen getting help from the thalmor while fighting to 'free skyrim'....from them.) You can find that out as soon as you get to the embassy quest and read the thalmor's dossier on him. It also refrences the 'markarth' incident and apparently they were attempting to stop his execution at helgen. The thalmor were doing everything in their power to make sure he didn't lose.....of course they didn't particularly want him to win either they wanted to draw out the conflict and allow the empire to weaken itself since the peace treaty was only agreed to by the empire as a means of biding time to rebuild the strength of their legion. BOTH the empire and the thalmor seem to agree that another war is inevitable(Both sides will at some point or another comment on the war and how next time things'll be different). The empire is simply biding it's time while rebuilding it's forces they won the war but didn't have enough of a army left to do anything but hold on to what they had.

Second. Ulfric spits on tradition by declaring himself high king without even having the support of most of the other jarls. The moot is the only way to declare a high king which means the other jarls need to agree. Instead he just claims the title and simply assumes the other jarls will 'eventually' agree with him.....even though his army is lacking in size and the people are still divided. He declares skyrim 'for the nords' despite that he apparently 'invited' the dark elves to windhelm then promptly ignored them and left them to rot in the cities slums. Which were even renamed to the gray quarter(because of the dark elf skin color). It's clear Ulfric puts on whatever face he thinks will benefit him at the point in time. He is not anything near the honorable man holding up skyrims traditions they make him out to be.

Third. Out of the many options available to Ulfric he chose the one course of action that MOST hurt skyrim. Killing the high king and becoming a traitor it almost as if he wanted to be branded as such. When hammerfell chose to break from the empire it was allowed to do so. Skyrim could have done the same but Ulfric killed the only person with the authority to declare such. Forcing an unnecessary conflict for no apparent reason than because he could. Sybelle stentor(the court wizard in solitude) mentioned torygg looked up to ulfric and he could've probably just talked to him. Perhaps if he had, instead of a 'rebellion' it'd have been a secession and they've had been able to turn their attention to kicking the thalmor out. Which is precisely what the thalmor want to avoid. Since despite appearances they're hurt more than they let on since they actually lost the war and were later even tossed out of hammerfell by the redguards a repeat of that in skyrim would obviously show how weak they currently are.

Fourth- What everyone overlooks is that the banning of talos worshipp was a term of the peace treaty.....so when that peace ends it's likely talos worhship will begin again, the empire was never really enforcing the ban until it became apparent they weren't and that's when the thalmor began excercising their rights granted by the treaty to seek out talos worshippers(and at the same time spy on the empire obviously) essentially Ulfric gave them everything they needed not just to hurt the empire but skyrim as well and is in fact a traitor to both.

And the aldmeri dominion had NO units available. Would you people actually read the book already? They had just sent them all to cyrodiil thinking they would be able to crush the empire once and for all and they were summarily destroyed. The book even says completely annihilated, as in no survivors at all. They had the force in hammerfell. And it was defeated by the redguards on their own. If they had another force, they would've taken Hammerfell with it, instead of piddling around for 5 years. If your enemy has no available forces to attack with...does that seem like a good time to surrender? Hell, Mede even had a great bargaining chip with Lord Narifiin captured, and he killed him instead. He could have negotiated the terms pretty easily, and instead accepted them without question.

I knew absolutely zero of the lore of previous games, but I sided with the group that was not preparing to behead me.

The grand manifestation of the Stormcloak racism seems to be "ignore them and hope they go away".Oh and have a drunk guy yell at em.

The Dumner and Argonians are separated in Windhelm because they are having issues with one another atm.If you open the city the guards(who are alredy stretched pretty thin it seems)will most likely not be able maintain peace.If you think that living up to your ideal of right and wrong is more important than the lives that may be lost in that situation well I just have to ask how is the view from your high horse?

And that seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Ulfric refuses contact with the Thalmor. The dossier you reference says that. He never was an agent and he isnt now an agent. At worst he was a contact. And the dossier says that too.

To be

To be fair the thalmor are coniving and devious Ulfric may have been Manchurian candidated.He may think it his plan but in reality it may not.Hopefully this will turn out to be another plan of the thalmor that backfires and bites em in the bum

Thank you, Darshia, for taking the time to type that all out. Great job. I just recently did the embassy quest and those dossiers are a real eye-opener. Reading those is vital to understanding what's going on.

Indeed the Thalmor wanted the war to start. They however did not want the stormcloaks to win. Because that means they'll have to start defending against raids and diverting resources they could've used against the empire. Not only that, but it would easily serve as a rallying cry to surrounding provinces to stop accepting this BS the thalmor are pushing on them.

If the thalmor had the force the empire said they did. They wouldn't have accepted the surrender. They would've wiped out the empire completely. They don't care for mannish servants. Man is what's keeping them from returning to the et'ada they once were.

I don't hate the empire. I hate its leadership. If the empire had decent leaders I'd be all for crushing the rebellion in Skyrim.

Mede is one of the worst things to happen to the empire.

Darshia, some good points. But nobody's saying Ulfric is Sir Galahad. He's a cunning military and politcal leader. He took the crown because it was expedient to do so.

Napoleon Bonaparte: "I found the crown of France just lying in a gutter, I wiped the mud off and put it on my head."

But I mainly disagree with you on Ulfric being a Thalmor agent. He is no such thing. The Thalmor didn't call him an agent either. They thought of him as "an asset". From his dossier it is clear they have lost control of him and they now fear a stormcloak victory. History is full of examples of empires that thought they could control some people like pawns, but who turned out to be their greatest nightmares.

Fredr, thanks for the well thought out post. 100% of what you've said epitomizes the reasons why I've opted to support the Stormcloaks effort. Particularly where it comes to what I suspect to be Imperialist slander on the Bear of Markath. This book's author (Arrianus Arius an Imperial scholar) does have questionable objectivity as being a non-partisan, objective source. The author's objectivity in this account is a subtle, minor detail a reader could easily overlook. But the same could be said of Lokheim's account chronicled in the Fall of the Snow Prince. This book was written from a partisan Atmoran perspective of the Mer's defeat in the Battle of the Moesring. So a reader needs to especially wary of treating historical accounts--particularly those written by the victor---as gospel. Lately, when it comes to reading books, I've found myself paying more and more attention to the author's names and perspective on the more controversial issues on the civil war and TES history. I actually find myself questioning the extent of altruism in the author's objectivity.

QFT. Given the fact that the Altmer are masters of subterfuge, the act of converting Ulfric into a Manchurian Candidate is a real possibility. It's the one thing that has plagued me the most about the Stormcloak effort in the civil war. I'm convinced that Ulfric is the quintessential true son of the North who is dedicated to achieving the self-determination of the Nord people and the sovereignty of Skyrim.

But I also see Ulfric as Skyrim's TES version of King Leonidas in an unfolding Greek Tragedy. Just like the Empire, Ulfric is ultimately a pawn in an endgame that can only be foretold by the Elder Scrolls. IMO, Ulfric's strategic stance in the civil war potentially makes him the deadliest weapon the Thalmor could ever wield against race of Man to date. Could it be possible the Altmer are using him as the perfect instrument to sow seeds of disunity and discord across the empire?

That's what my paranoia has been whispering to me anyways. But I wouldn't put anything past the Altmer in pulling a Machiavellian stunt like this. Especially given the sordid history of the Thalmor Dominion, the fact hubris is the Altmer's greatest sin, and the ominous power struggle for supremacy between Man and Mer ever since the Night of Tears.

Hmmm.
I haven't got far into the MQ, but I suspect it was Thalmor who are behind the destruction of Helgen and subsequent escape of Ulfric.

They weren't there to destroy Helgen. Alduin's arrival was coincidental.(In a way the thalmor did have a hand in it, but its hard to say it was completely intentional) But they were there to try and prevent Ulfric's execution. They do want this war to continue on as long as it can go. Ulfric dying would've hurt the stormcloak movement.

Most of the reasons the OP has against the Empire are moot for me, since..

Whatever faction we choose, our characters more than likely change it drastically from the inside out. It shouldn't matter if the Empire doesn't have a dragonborn emperor, for example, if there's a chance that YOU are going to be that dragonborn. Being puppets of the Thalmor would no doubt change as well. Again, you're giving all of the power and influence of the story to everyone else, and leaving out the main element - you. It's the same way with other factions and guilds. You're an agent of change. You have a choice to pick the Theives guild out of the gutter a bit, or the change the curse on the Companions.

Even if you choose Stormcloaks, I doubt Ulfric remains it's biggest influence.

Stormcloaks is an easy choice, the only group that wants Talos to be freely worshiped. The Empire reminds me too much of the NCR, except they are even worse because they could've seen this coming.

Not really...Titus Mede the first kept the Empire from falling apart. If it wasant for the Medes the empire would have fallen Long ago. Its one thing to be "God-Like" Which the septims are and another to be "Badass Normal" Which the Medes are. Well I guess It just depends on your Ideolgy. Its alright to hate somthing Because they just almost killed you but i prefer to look at the bigger picture, Who is better for skyrim In the long run? In my view its The Empire, Unlike the Stormcloaks The empire has a Non-aggresive treaty with the thalmor, If the stormcloaks just wait a little, The empire and the thalmor would fight again. If the stormcloaks took Skyrim, The non aggresion treaty would not apply to skyrim because its no-longer part of the empire, Which would have A very Bad effect on both skyrim and the empire!

I don't think we'll ever canonically know which side wins the war given all this talos stuff

Spirit of Old Hroldan recognizes the Dragonborn as Hjalti(Tiber's original name), and the greybeards recognize you as Ysmir just as they did Tiber.
Ulfric seems reminiscent of Wulfharth, and Stormcloak is rather similar to Stormcrown
Tullius is similar to Zurin Arctus(Without the magic abilities), Tullius being similar to Talos.

Seems like we're bound for another mythological mixup where the Dragonborn leads either side to a resolidifying of mankind and a rally against the Thalmor.


We'll never know for sure what would've happened to the empire. All I can say is that the reign of the Medes is ridiculously shameful and the blame for this whole mess lies solely on their shoulders(Mede I more than II).

I'm not even sure why Talos becomes a big factor in all of this. At a certain point, you are his equal or his peer, more or less. If you don't see yourself as a god, then maybe Talos might not be either. Maybe it's something in between.

I think the choice should come down more to what appeals to more to your political ideas, and which side you think has the tools you can work with. In Empire's case, you have their vast network, their aspirations for a unified Tamriel, etc.. They just lack leadership. On Skyrim's side, they have a more isolationist attitude, and wish to work from a clean slate. Maybe that's easier to work with. But just making it all about religion is weird for me, personally. I don't really want much to do with that (to each their own though).

I'm still trying to figure out out Altmer and Bosmer alone could defeat the entire Empire (with its Imperials, Nords, Reguards, Bretons, Dunmer, Argonians and Kajiit). Seems a little far-fetched, but hey, I didn't write the story.

The empire Lost the Aid of the argonians and Cat-People when the separted(Before the Medes came into power), The orcs Became refugess, Morrowind Blew up. While the Thalmor have elite mages, Powerfull archers and A large ground force