And with that, you shall kill thousands of mer, unbothered whether they're pro- or anti- dominion. Because Tamriel is (read: was originally) yours. While the Dominion claims it's theirs now. And afterwards, you will also conquer the aldmeri lands, to "ensure they will never try to capture Our lands" (and secretly also out of revenge). And thus the circle is round again, and you took the place of the Almeri Dominion by doing exactly the same as they have done. And this kind of thing will go on and on and on forever. This seems vaguely familiar to me ... http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b183/DogDoggie/war.jpg

May I also add that the Imperials have had a good share of murdering, plundering and conquering too?

I fail to see the connection. Why would the Imperials care about that? It's not like they're best friends with the orsimer and thought of avenging them out of goodwill.

On a sidenote, another thing worth mentioning is how epic it is to fight Ulfric, since you both use the Thu'um. I think that storyline has more potential than both of you being on the same side. It's kind of overkill. It'd be cooler if you had a duel. Because duels are badass. Besides that, it's poetic justice. He deserves a fight with someone who actually defend themselves. Shouting down Torryg is kind of bully-ish.

edit: Damn, sorry for the edits. I keep making typos.

How can one not be a Stormcloak? The Empire took gold and has no legitimate emperor? We still have a US, regardless what you think of any particular president. And besides, the leader of the Stormcloaks is a proven double crosser with ties to the Thamor. But the real issue is what is the best chance for most people to beat the Thalmor- and that's staying together in the Empire. Dividing now is exactly what would aid the Thalmor later.

Tullius is basically a puppet for the Thalmor, The Thorald quest pretty much confirms that and that quest itself is one if not the main reason why I wouldn't support the Empire.

Yeah but it's also epic to have the Dovahkiin arrive just in time to save Skyrim, especially if you're a Nord PC. My Stormcloak character wasn't devout before but began to believe that Talos had sent her to do just that. The opener at Helgen started to seem like destiny. Plus it's easy, to me, to make common cause with the Stormcloaks with how you start out in the game. I was going to make an orc character who was a Legion veteran, but then it's just that much more outrageous that the empire is going to cut your head off for nothing.

this reads like a typical political campaign ad.

The sky is falling. Why the panic attack? As you're now discovering playing TES is unlike any other rpg on the market. Unlike other rpgs, there is no black and white in the TES universe--only shades of gray.....

That being said, you simply need to do a save game (where you currently are in the game) and stick that on a thumb drive. Then pick a side in the MQ and play it to the end. Next, use this same save game to rinse and reapeat the same process with the other civil war faction.

If your entire goal in playing this game is all about being the crusading paladin who champions the side of right, then you've set yourself up for some serious dissappointment. TES isn't exactly known for having questline endings where everyone gets to live happily ever after.

The way TES history has unfolded so far is proof of this.

I want to live where you live.

So what's reasonably solidly left of the Empire when ES V happens? Cyrodiil, Skyrim, Highrock and whats left of Morrowind?

Well so far, TES has been set in High Rock, Hammerfell, Cyrodiil, Skyrim, and Morrowind/Solsthiem. Even Battlespire to boot. So what's left is Valenwood, Elyswer, The Black Marsh and my favorite--Alinor aka Summerset Isle---home to the Lucifer Proud Altmer.

Didymus and the successive arguments sum this up pretty well.


I don't claim to be an expert on Imperial Laws, but I'm guessing if you're grouped together with a bunch of men about to be executed, whatever crime you committed deemed you worthy enough for capital punishment.


You're confused with chronology here. I'm not using Braig's excessively dramatic sob story as a sole example here, in fact I don't recall actually mentioning Braig specifically because of the fact that it was the Jarl who executed his daughter.

The point is; what drove the Forsworn to such hatred in the first place? What drove them to commit the crimes that they do? Ulfric strode into the Reach one day and decided that the weather was fine for racial supremacy. Prior to this, the Reachmen and the Nords were getting along pretty well. Although it's still no excuse for retaliatory violence through Briarheart hoodoo and dervish, indiscriminate killing, it's not hard to see what drove them over the edge. Though the Imperials certainly aren't spotless, and in no way am I justifying or supporting the equally racist actions of the Thalmor, the Stormcloaks are no better. What separates the Imperials from the Stormcloaks is that their policies and general stance do not specifically favour a certain race, i.e. the Stormcloaks and their idea of Nord supremacy.

I'm willing to concece only two things on this premise - first, that perhaps the anology drawn between Stormcloaks/Thalmor and Nazis was a little too drastic, and that the Dunmer chose to live in the Gray Quarter. That was an oversight on my part.

What you've failed to tackle is the entire point about the Argonians being kicked right out of Windhelm. If you talk to Scouts-Many-Marshes after taking Windhelm for the Empire, it becomes known that Ulfric forbade them from even residing in the city itself. Only when the Imperials came to power were they allowed back in.

I chose the Empire over the Stormcloaks despite my hate for the Thalmor. They can piss right back off to the Summerset Isles, but what is best for Skyrim in the future? Whichever side you choose, a unified Skyrim means trouble for the Thalmor. A cost-benefit anolysis basically showed that the Empire was better - firstly because if Skyrim is unified, the White-Gold Concordat can be overthrown, and the forces in Skyrim consolidated with those in Cyrodiil and Hammerfell to finally evict the Thalmor. If the Stormcloaks won, you'd have a unified Skyrim, BUT you'll have a three-faction war if the Empire, the Stormcloaks and the Thalmor engage in conflict. Very messy and undesirable. Fractious alliances between two sides with only a common enemy to unite them last for only so long.

Furthermore, the Empire is generally more accepting of the Breton, Imperial, Bosmer etc diaspora, whereas the Stormcloaks preach Nord supremacy throughout Skyrim.

There is a fundamental difference between bravery and stupidity. With Skyrim riven by civil strife, direct confrontation with the Thalmor would be suicidal. It doesn’t exactly take a rocket scientist to see that.

The confrontation between Ulfric and Torygg in principle was traditional and honourable. The way Ulfric executed his plan to drive Torygg into that challenge was not. If you speak to the court members of the Blue Palace, they tell you that Ulfric requested merely an audience with the High King. It was only once he was inside the palace itself, at the feet of the High King, when the stewards were unable to negotiate and/or debate, that he threw down the challenge.

Ulfric knew that compared to him, Torygg was only a boy. He knew there would be no contest in this challenge and that with the Thu’um, it would be a walkover. Still, he never made his intentions clear from the start, and obviously geared the entire incident to favour himself throughout, despite the already-existing disparity in combat capability between him and Torygg. He made the uneven playing field even more uneven.

That’s a pretty shaky concept of honour to me.

Who did he fight?

Dark Elf's need to get off their high horses and fight for the land they live in. Milk Drinkers.

And If my character was born in skyrim the time Talos attacked it, he would of fought AGAINST Talo's.

Stormcloak's are defending their land, and want to be free from the Imperial Boot that attempts to squash Nord Culture.

Im Pro-Stormcloak and im not even a Nord.


And the dude above me, If Ulfric wen't to the Court and asked " Can i come in and challenge Torygg " you'd think they'd let him through?

I try not to idolize either side, as such is the formula for delusion. Tullius is ignorant of the Nords' ways and the Legion is far from perfect. It's disgusting that the Thalmor can arrest people for worshiping Talos. And the frequently mentioned Imperial Captain tries to execute a border-crosser and a horse thief along with a bunch of Stormcloaks and their leader. On the other hand, however, Ulfric pulled the same kind of butchery on a far greater scale at Markarth. I think it is reasonable to think that from what we've heard from multiple sources, the Forsworn's hatred towards the Nords can be understood looking at what Ulfric did to them. That Stormcloak supporters are now using them as them as puppets to eliminate anyone that gets in their way only makes the Stormcloak actions in Markarth less sympathetic.

I don't know if Ulfric is a Thalmor-made power-hungry despot using religious freedom as an excuse to make himself High King, or a rebel who genuinely believes that Skyrim will be better off in the long run as an independent nation. Frankly, I feel that from my perspective, an Empire-controlled Skyrim is the best bet for both Skyrim and Tamriel in the long run. Sure a Stormcloak-controlled Skyrim could work, but it relies on too many unseen and unheard "ifs". An Imperial controlled Skyrim feels like the safer choice, as it'll go back to the way things were previously: the Nords revere Talos behind the Thalmor's backs, the Imperials look the other way, and three provinces stand united against the Dominion (which also consists of three provinces). Yes it still means the Thalmor will try to stamp out Talos worship in Skyrim and Cyrodiil, but I feel it's better to put up with their ineffectual efforts for a few more years than making it easier for them to conquer Cyrodiil (thus both doing great harm to the Imperial people and giving the Thalmor a foothold to enter both High Rock and Skyrim) in the future.

I can't believe I'm saying this but...Another one of these threads. . In all honesty Ulfric is a piss sniffing moron and the empire is an unstable machine. Pick your demon.

I'll pick free worship of Talos, because the only way to kill an idea is to kill everyone who has it in their head. Or demoralize them utterly.

That's working out real well right now for Bashar Al-Assad, here on Earth.

So the Imperial Legion quells the rebellion. It won't kill the idea of Divine Talos. I don't believe that's their goal, not at all, but they will create so much bad blood and resentment in the process, that half the sons and daughters of Skyrim will just raise their middle fingers next time there's a call to arms to defend good 'ol White Gold.

OTOH, let's say Skyrim gains independence. Nords who remained loyal to the Empire may be upset and view the development with trepidation, but when the battle cry sounds, they will pick up arms and defend their homeland without a second thought. Ulfric may be an [censored], but he's Skyrim's [censored].

The Empire is well-intended; they want to keep up a united front vs. the Aldmeri Dominion. But they've already screwed that particular pooch, time and time again. Not in any small part due to petty in-fighting after the destruction of the Septim bloodline and the Chim-el-Adabal, and therefore, the entirety of the Divine Covenant.

Perhaps the Cyrodiilic Empire's time has come and gone, but they just haven't figured that out yet. They've always had great champions to rally around, whether they be Alessia, Reman, or Tiber, and the Amulet of Kings to adorn them with, but that's all over now.

The Aldmeri/Thalmor are the true threat, but at the end of the day, nothing but fools running their errands. Because they're at war with an idea. They'd like to reboot the Universe and start another kalpa in which THEY are a Divine, but there's this Lorkhan character who keeps popping up to foil them. (Imagine a big huge speech bubble in the sky over Masser containing the caption, "LOL").

At least half of Skyrim supports the Empire to begin with. And if the Thalmor were to ever attack, it'd invalidate the Concordat and give the Nords a chance to fight the Thalmor. Even if some Nords hate the Empire, they hate the Thalmor a lot more.

Wrong. The empire pulled its legions out and the Forsworn took Markarth by force. You should talk to Jarl Igmund, and listen in on his pvssyr with his steward. He's imperial through and through, and he hates the Forsworn more than any Stormcloak. They killed his family and according to him were always savage. Clearly there are native Reachmen who aren't, but I highly doubt the Forsworn took up sadistic daedric rituals overnight. The Bear of Markarth contradicts this and paints them as noble savages, but that's because it's intended to be propaganda to kiss Thalmor hinters after the imperials got caught doing deals about Talos worship.

I have no doubt that the re-taking of Markarth wasn't bloody, but that's war, and Ulfric was an imperial soldier at the time and acting under imperial orders. Then they sold him out.
How many Argonian or Dunmer emperors do you see?

To keep the Dunmer and Argonians from each others' throats, I imagine. And to keep an overcrowded city from being even more crowded. Why are Khajiit not allowed even in imperial cities?

They also say that if he'd been honest, they'd never have let him in. The imperials have no respect whatsoever for Nord traditions, and with them holding the reins, you can't expect a level playing field. Look at how they reacted afterward. I suppose you believe Ulfric should have honorably let them cut his head off, too.

So it's okay for Ulfric to execute those who even associated themselves with the Forsworn regime, but it's not okay for General Tullius to execute a horse thief and the PC because they got caught with Ulfric and a bunch of Stormcloak soldiers?

No, he led a militia to retake Markarth, not the Imperial Legion. And the Legion didn't mastermind it, the Thalmor did, as a part of their plan to start a rebellion to weaken the Empire.

Argonians, I believe, cannot reproduce with Imperials, so it's highly unlikely they'll end up in the line of succession. And Cyrodiil had a Dunmer empress. She ruled for 47 years.

They're still governed by Nordic Jarls and mostly inhabited by Nords. That they're allied with the Empire doesn't actually make them Imperial cities.

Last time I checked, the Blue Palace was full of Nords. Solitude isn't an Imperial city, it's a Nordic city just like Windhelm.

We don't know for sure that he did. I'm not taking an imperial broadsheet at its word. Regardless, he was acting as an imperial soldier. Ask yourself why the empire is imprisoning and slaughtering Forsworn instead of making reparations to them and ceding territory.

So the Thalmor claim. Ulfric was still an imperial soldier, and it was the imperials who wanted Markarth back and asked him to take it.


Who ascended by marriage and was met with much racist criticism. And in all the empire's history, just one, and one long ago?

Well we're discussing whether the Stormcloaks are more racist than others. If all Nords have basically the same attitude, then the whole discussion is moot.

But that is part of Ulfric's claim. The Nords have gotten so far from themselves that they don't even respect their own traditions. And we all know who is really ruling in Solitude. It sure isn't Elisif, and by the sounds, the same was true of Torygg.

That's untrue. There are multiple sources claiming that The Reach was retaken not by the Legion, but by a Nordic Militia. It's true that Ulfric was formerly in the Legion, but that was during the Great War. He didn't retake The Reach as a Legion Soldier, but as the son of a Jarl leading a militia. And as a Thalmor puppet. They retook the reach because the Nords in Markarth promised Ulfric free Talos worship, something the Imperial Legion would not pull off. The Imperials never asked to have The Reach retaken, and from what we've heard, they planned on negotiating with the Forsworn. Yes, it could be argued that it was a questionable move to seek to recognize with a nation that worships Daedra, mutilates goats and spriggans, and carries out blood sacrifices. But they did not do as you said.

Nordic distrust of Khajiit is a lot more widespread than the distrust of Argonians and Dunmer. I imagine it has something to do with the fact that the Khajiit caravans deal in skooma and moon sugar. it also might have to do with the fact that culturally, they don't understand the concept of personal property and many of them revere the Thalmor.

Admittedly, there's no evidence that racism against Dunmer is more widespread than just Windhelm, restricted to mostly Nordic citizens and Ulfric himself.

I've seen no evidence that they've become distanced from Nordic culture. Torygg worshiped Talos, and was similarly discontent with the Concordat. I believe Tullius was only sent to Skyrim after the rebellion began.

Igmund is an imperial supporter through and through. Are you saying that he and his father acted against the empire? What's your source for that? It's possible that the empire just said "we need Markarth back" and he took things into his own hands from there, but they were all imperial subjects, and in determining who's more at fault- Ulfric or the imperial Nords- an honest person would have to say both.

Precisely what Ulfric's status vis a vis the imperial army at the time, I'll agree is unclear. He was a veteran, and not yet a jarl. It seems safe to me to assume that he was still in the imperial army. But I admit that's an assumption on my part.

And the Argonians also deal in skooma. The Nords and elves have also always had mistrust toward one another. This is a universal in Tamriel- that's the main point- though people insist on making the Nords and especially the Stormcloaks out as especially racist.
Ulfric never expresses any animosity toward the Dunmer. He's impatient with their demands because he's got bigger fish to fry. The Nords and Dunmer have had a wall of separation between them for years, but it appears to be mutual. People complain because people always complain about governments. It's the same in the other holds, too. People will criticize Balgruuf for this or that, or Ingrod, or in Solitude say Torygg wasn't a very good king.
I don't think Torygg was a bad guy, and he seems to have had some sympathetic leanings, but basically he was a weak king- a false king, really. There was no "there" there. Elisif is even more vacant. She won't even say "I would like to see Torygg buried as a Nord," only that he would have wanted that- then sends a stranger off to perform this family rite. The aforementioned critic of him says that all he ever did was give speeches about the empire this and the empire that.

There were always a number of Forsworn before the Markarth incident, but a couple of prisoners in Cidhna Mine and other Forsworn sympathizers throughout Markarth state that they signed up to become Forsworn as a result of the Silver-Bloods' (Stormcloak sympathizers) corruption, or because of how they were evicted from their lands in the first place.

What drove this number of Reachmen into becoming Forsworn was Ulfric's entire policy of Nord supremacy. This unfortunately had the side effect of making the Forsworn hate every single Nord on the continent even more, regardless of whether they supported Ulfric or not. The Markarth Incident was basically an event that catalysed existing racial tension between the Forsworn and the Nord settlers, making it escalate into a rapid downward spiral. And, in turn, it drove them to kill Igmund's family and created an entire cycle of violence. Vengeance begets vengeance. Even though Igmund is a Thalmor ass-kisser, his allegiance in terms of the Civil War is a moot point as he executed the Forsworn on the premise of what they did to his family, not because of any political affiliation.


Read the book "The "Madmen" of the Reach" and you'll see that before the Markarth incident, the Empire was working with the Reachmen to make them a legitimate people with proper social structure. This contradicts what Igmund says about the Reachmen taking over Markarth during the Great War itself without Imperial authorization. A conflicting bit of background information, to be honest.

But even if Igmund's word is canonically correct instead of the records in the book, it still doesn't justify Ulfric's possible motives and later actions. The Empire didn't sell him out because he was Ulfric - they were forced to arrest him because the Thalmor found out, and to allow him to reinstate Talos worship would be to engage in another disastrous war. Yet, Ulfric's later actions reveal his true mentality - his rebellion wasn't aimed at crippling the empire itself (which would show a lack of understanding of the big picture), it was aimed at entrenching Nord supremacy in Skyrim entire. The motives of the Stormcloak uprising were not "I want revenge because I was arrested unfairly", it was "all of Skyrim for her true sons and daughters, screw the other races."

What point are you trying to make? Racial equality doesn't necessarily mean you get members of your race in every high-flying position in another land. How many mainland Chinese do you see holding positions in the U.S. senate? How many American immigrants do you see in the British Parliament? Essentially, saying that there are no Argonians or Dunmer in high-ranking positions is not reasonable proof for your statement that the Empire is no better than the Stormcloaks in terms of how they treat races. There is no proper link between the two.

Even if this question properly justified your point, I need only point you in the direction of Dragonsreach, where Irileth the Dunmer serves as Balgruuf's housecarl.
Then why did the Empire let the Argonians back in? Just because there are two races at each others' throats, just because you have little space, doesn't mean you evict one race out of the city completely. How is that fair treatment? When you have problems you work towards solving them in a mutually beneficial manner. You do not tell one race to GTFO.

If I remember correctly, Khajiit are not allowed because of their outright dealings in skooma and other narcotics. Although Argonians sometimes indulge in skooma, they do not sell, trade or use skooma as blatantly as the Khajiit.

Many of the Stewards like Falk Firebeard are Nords themselves. That renders your point about the Imperials having no respect for Nord tradition moot. On top of that, many legionnaires are Nords themselves. As far as I'm concerned, I see no evidence of Nord culture being suppressed other than Talos worship, which is just one facet of that diverse culture - and even then, I've made various points about how the blanket ban on Talos worship isn't that strictly enforced anyway, points that you haven't rebutted.

The reason why they didn't let him in is because of the nature of the challenge itself. Let me explain - in principle, a challenge between two leaders is fair and honourable. But when Torygg ascended the throne he was younger than Ulfric and far less skilled in martial combat. Ulfric challenging him for the Throne in single combat is like an MMA Pro picking a fight with an amateur boxer. There is no honour in such an unbalanced fight when your High King is an inexperienced youth. Clearly, Ulfric wanted power, which was why he used trickery and artifice to get there in the first place.

You're trying to blame the Markarth Incident on Ulfric alone, and excuse Igmund and other imperial Nords from complicity, and that just doesn't fly. The deal was engineered by both of them.

The books about the Reachmen have very much a "noble savages" feel to them. They strike me as pretty naive, even patronizing, and I believe are the product of one imperial scholar. He's got his perspective, but there are others.

The Stormcloaks want Nords to rule themselves without imperial interference- that equates to "screw other races"? Only if you're going from an assumption that Stormcloaks are racist. Then it becomes a circular argument.

That the imperials are just as ethnocentric as the Nords, and the fact that Cyrodiil and her interests always predominate, and the imperials are considered a better class of citizen than others, is just de rigeur in Tamriel.
They weren't ever let in to begin with, as I understand it. Are you forgetting that most cities want to bar your entrance at first, too? Ulfric is conducting a war. If he takes policies to prevent some social problems, or simply neglects those, then the most he can be accused of is that- neglect. Regardless, you're willing to make excuses for the imperials about the Khajiit, but apparently everything Ulfric does is bad just because Ulfric does it. We're obviously going to get nowhere.
I repeat- they say that if they had known Ulfric was going to challenge Torygg, they would never have let him in. Ulfric had a right under the old Nord law to challenge the king. To his credit, Torygg recognized this. The rest of his court and the people who execute the guy who let him out of the gate- not so much. The fact that they're Nords is really irrelevant, since they're milk-drinking imperial lackeys and that is Ulfric's point.

Frankly, I do believe they acted against the Empire, and although I prefer the Empire over the Stormcloaks, I don't blame Igmund at all. The Empire and was going to recognize the sovereignty of Madanach's kingdom. In his desperation, the Nords asked Ulfric for help, making a promise that not only could they not keep, but that the Thalmor were behind. The Empire ignored it because the Thalmor handled it accordingly, not realizing that it was all a plot to weaken the Empire from within.

The Dunmer mention that Ulfric has made things worse for them. And I believe that it was a Nord that mentioned that Ulfric has shown favoritism, doing all he can to help local Nords, but turning a blind eye to problems the Dunmer have, yet always making time for Nords when they have the same problems. It's true that I've not heard of Ulfric every speaking of anti-Dunmer policies in the game, but they're there.

You can only make an assumption that Igmund's family acted independently. It's a valid interpretation, but I don't know of any source that says the empire wasn't in on it. They certainly can't have objected too much since they supported Igmund's jarlship and let Ulfric take the fall.