Having played Skyrim many times now with many diff chars one thing truly baffles me. Ive read all the Stormcloak hate on the forums, on how they are nazis etc.

One of my characters was evil and joined the DB and thus also the empire. In the end i deleted him as i simply couldnt stand him.

The empire is a huge NONO for me because of many many reasons here are but a few:

-Has lost all legitimacy due to the fact that they have no dragonborn emperor anymore (thus an imposter rules). As said in the prophecy "when misrule takes place".

-They torture people left and right, Helgen which is a small military camp has a whole dungeon for torture. Here they maim, starve, murder any and all that dare question them or the thalmor.

-They have become puppets to a regime (the thalmor) that abducts anyone (men, women, children) and torture them to death for simply not sharing their faith. The empire openly protects this.

-Jarl Balgruuf admits that the Empire got alot of gold for signing the white gold concordat, making all men slaves to the thalmors whims. The nobles in the empire endless greed and war fatigue sold everything out after a major victory. The thalmor makes wars with all weapons and greed and fear finally won them the war even after their defeat.

-The empire abandoned Hammerfell that later, proved itself right to continue the fight and thus the empire wrong. With sacrifice the thalmor would be defeated.

-The empire would rather start a civil war than leave Skyrim, even though they know that this war will benefit the thalmor. Their greed and lust for power is simply to great.

-The empire wants to execute the main character for having done absolutely nothing wrong. Just being in the general area as the stormcloaks is enough to be executed. The general for the enitire area is present and he does not care one bit. He has probably murdered thousands of innocents by this time anyways...

-If you do help the empire in the beginning and save Hadvars life. He says im sure that general Tullius will give you a pardon (a pardon for what?? for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, im so sorry)

-The empire is clearly racist as it has chosen to forbid a whole culture and religion.

-The ruling class of the empire has strong ties to corruption and crime (the thieves guild, maven black briar etc). In fact it so common and widespread that this how the ruling is now accepted to be done.

As for the stormcloaks:

-They are led by a warhero that is so broken and torn from the civil war that his righthand man must convince him to give orders. He has been sent to the bloodiest of wars, then being betrayed by a peace, tortured til breaking by the thalmor, imprisoned. Yet he picks up the pieces and cannot stop fighting. As he says in his private conversation with Galmar:

-I fight so that all the fighting I have allready done should not be for nothing, I fight for the dying friends ive held in my arms so that their sacrifices should not be forgotten. I fight because i returned home to place full of familiar faces that now were strangers (ie having abandoned their faith, the empire, the truth, honor). I fight because I must.

-Ulfric hides the fact that the thalmor broke him and still continues to prepare war with them. As seen after a stormcloak victory, the smiths in solitude are now ordered to produce as much weapons as during the bloody civil war. Because a new war is coming.

- Ulfric hesitates to send in his army vs whiterun. He does not want more death. But the alternative is stagnation and thus profiting the thalmor. He is a weak leader and the dovahkiin would have been better. I do however feel pity for this tortured old veteran that is so sick of bloodshed yet wills himself to continue, even if it takes Galmars strong heart and voice to push him forward.

- The courage the general stormcloak shows is amazing, as seen in the opening scene. They sacrifice themselves to persecution, torture and death. Simply for freedom. Freedom from the thalmor, religious and political freedom from an empire that tax and punish them but give nothinh in return.

- The stormcloaks allow the dunmer refugees to live within the walled city, in houses after the amazing racism that the dunmer shoved on all others. The dunmer only complain that their caravans are not protected. Yet it is clearly told that Ulfric cant even protect the city from a massmurderer (that goes after nord women) due to the fact that he needs his guards in the war. Yet he is a nazi for not protecting the dunmer on the open roads....

-Anyone is allowed to join the stormcloaks and many do. Ive met redguards, dunmer, high elves on their way to join ulfric and the high elf merchant in windhelm clearly states that after gaining the stormcloaks trust they are awesome allies.

-Ulfric is slandered by the empire by pure lies, the bear of markarth is held as an objective text on the forums yet is cleary written as propagande by the empire, for the empire. Bethesda clearly rights this out when you read the author. But it does not stop there, they say Ulfric murdered the high king yet it is made clear that it was a challenge that the high king accepted. A challenge that nords accept to be lawful and true. And ulfric even admits he didnt want to do this, he is sorry for the high king but he had no choice in his mind. He was a puppet king of the empire and the thalmor and he couldnt protect skyrim anymore than he could protect himself. The high king even respected Ulfric greatly but Ulfric knew that he had no choice but challenge him or see his people destroyed by a puppet ruler that wouldnt even realise it. Protected in his palace, entertained by his queen.

To me the choice of what faction to join as all races other than a rped thalmor joins the stormcloaks (or unless very evil)


-Bosmer (the thalmor do purges on them, this is nazi stuff) no way that they can support an empire that helps the thalmor abduct, torture etc. Same goes for dunmer, redguard.

-The very last thing i will add is this. If you do join the empire then the broken old warhero Ulfric asks that you kill him as you are dragonborn (the right to rule, chosen etc). He finds comfort in any little thing and even though he is a plagued old man i pitied him there. After killing him you find him in the nords heaven. Showing what kind of a man he was...despite all his flaws and all that he suffered.

A point by point deconstruction:

* "When Misrule takes place" refers to the Tharn Simulacrum, not the Mede dynasty.

* Ulfric Stormcloak has a Rack in his dungeon. He tortures too.

* Here's the big one: Ulfric Stormcloak was a POW of the Thalmor and was subject to their... "methods". What is the assurance that his mind is his own?

* The gist I got from that was that they basically grudgingly accepted it, even with the gold. "Dammit, it's not about the gold"

* It was either Hammerfell, or the war flares right back up again. Lesser of two evils.

* They don't leave Skyrim because they know they need Skyrim as much as Skyrim needs the empire. Do you really think that Skyrim could stand alone against the Thalmor?

* The Empire doesn't want to execute you, one single crazy b@#$& of an officer wants to execute you. Consider this: If Ulfric hadn't caused his little rebellion, the ambush that tagged and bagged you along with him would have never happened.

* And guess what? Tullius does pardon you, essentially saying "Yeeeahhh... our bad."

* The Stormcloaks are clrearly racist, unlike the Imperials. Did you know that the Imperials would have essentially looked the other way about Skyrim's Talos worship if it weren't for Ulfric's rabble-rousing over it? Rabble rousing done after being induced to do so by his Thalmor handlers. Or do you mean "racist" in that they won't let the Stormcloaks be far more clearly racist?

* Silver-bloods. Thalmor handlers. Riften was pretty much controlled by Maven already, the original Jarl was a sad thing to see...

As for the Stormcloaks...

* They are led by a petulant short-tempered man whose "war heroism" consisted of sitting in a Thalmor dungeon probably being brainwashed, and also committing the very crimes he levies at the Empire in microcosm during his "liberation" of Markarth.

* So you are easily swayed by rousing words instead of thinking things through?

* Does he? Bleeding the Empire dry is the Thalmor's optimal plan, but I see Skyrim alone and the Empire's back being broken as an acceptable secondary result of the civil war for the Thalmor. Instead of the Empire being preserved. Peeling the Empire apart has been the long term goal of the Thalmor.

* And yet he surrounds himself with bloodthirsty people like Galmar Stone-fist.

* I question the veracity of that claim. All the non-nords I've encounterd on the roads that want to "join up" have been for the Empire.

* "Nothing"? They get roads, they get trade, they get food. And had they not been rabble-rousers, the Empire would have been content to pretend that they didn't worship Talos. Instead, they did rabble-rouse over it, and now the Thalmor have an excuse to parade about Skyrim like they own it. Exactly their plan with Ulfric I might add.

* Are you serious? How can you miss the blatant bigotry that the Stormcloaks have against anyone not nordic? And then levy the same charge against the Empire?. They're allowed in, but are barely tolerated (did you somehow miss that dunmer woman being harassed by a pair of bigoted nords?), forced to live in a slum, summarily ignored by Ulfric... hell, the Argonians aren't even allowed inside the city walls. "Skyrim for the nords!" is one of their bloody battle cries fer cryin' out loud! :facepalm:Your levied accusation of "Imperials are racist" is very Rovian.

* Is "The Bear of Markarth" really a propaganda piece? Take the pro-Foresworn route out of Cidna Mine.

* I would have shrugged off the assassination of King Torygg had he called it exactly that. But to call that... slaughter a "honorable duel" is an affront. Lemme put it in a more modern anology. Ulfric and Torygg are to have a sword duel... and then Ulfric busts out a submachine gun and fills Torygg with 20 bullet holes. How the hell is that an "honorable duel"? Ulfric is basically pissing on everyone and calling it rain.

* Ulfric asks you to kill him because of ego. "It will make for a better song" just drips of it.

To me, the people that are pro-Stormcloak tend to be people who prefer to feel instead of think. And have some misconception that Skyrim is the only one with a grudge against the Thalmor.

The real killer is that Ulfric has a post-mortem 20/20 hindsight moment in Sovngarde over the whole sordid affair.

I seriously can not see how anyone could create yet another thread discussing this...

I don't know that much about the lore, although these two posts have been very informative, but what I do know is that the Stormcloaks are just nicer people. Laugh if you want to, but the Imperials are always bitter and spew hatred even during the most benign of conversations while the Stormcloaks are always helpful and kind.

I've just started over and gotten to know the Battle-born and the Gray-manes. I noticed that the Battle-born are slandering the Gray-manes with every breath, while the Gray-manes just live their lives and seem to be peaceful (as far as state of mind) and happy.... sure enough, the Battle-born support the Empire.

So yeah, I'm siding with the nice guys.

Love you madcat, simply love you. Me and my brother have exactly the same discussion, and even after reading this, he's not convinced, but at least silent.

*Standing ovation*

While I can sympathize with the Stormcloaks and many of their aims, they are simply not thinking things through and are playing right into the hands of the Thalmor.

Ulfric challenged him to an honorable battle. In Oblivion, Shout is as common as Sweetroll in Skyrim, with the northernmost people being the most elemental. The fact that Torygg (or any Nord) cannot use a Shout (while Ulfric can, and made a good use out of it) is already beyond me.

Ulfric is simply the "Nord-iest" of the two. Dumb muscle, yes, but honorable. Galmar himself said he (Galmar) sacrificed everything for the Empire, and was rewarded with the banning of his God.

Sometimes, honor and strategy does not match. Ulfric and the Stormcloaks simply chose the earlier, for the future is not predictable other than by the Elder Scrolls

Some of Madcat's points hold true the misrule line is the Simulacrum(The prophecy is about the events leading to Skyrim. Not the current day things. I'm pretty sure Oblivion's jaws weren't shut in 4e200), and there's just as much corruption in either side. The stormcloak jarl of Riften tries somewhat(She does task you with removing the drug trade), but is clearly being influenced by Maven already. And the Silverbloods are absolutely terrible.

* Here's the big one: Ulfric Stormcloak was a POW of the Thalmor and was subject to their... "methods". What is the assurance that his mind is his own?

The thalmor dossier on him itself where they can't approach him without him getting hostile. Their noting to encourage the war, but to avoid a stormcloak victory. Ulfric's insistance that elenwen be removed from peace deals. His fervor to create attack forces to combat the thalmor after the war is over.


* The gist I got from that was that they basically grudgingly accepted it, even with the gold. "Dammit, it's not about the gold"

It was a surrender at a time when the thalmor had no means of attack left. Bribery or incompetance are the only things that makes sense.


* It was either Hammerfell, or the war flares right back up again. Lesser of two evils.

Again, what forces did the thalmor have left? The Empire was in the better position. They replenish forces faster, and still have an attack force whereas the thalmor had none.


* They don't leave Skyrim because they know they need Skyrim as much as Skyrim needs the empire. Do you really think that Skyrim could stand alone against the Thalmor?

Yes, Hammerfell already proved that the empire was wrong on this matter. Skyrim doesn't need the empire at all.

*The Empire doesn't want to execute you, one single crazy b@#$& of an officer wants to execute you. Consider this: If Ulfric hadn't caused his little rebellion, the ambush that tagged and bagged you along with him would have never happened.

Tullius approves of the execution. He's her commanding officer, its his duty to check in on this.

* And guess what? Tullius does pardon you, essentially saying "Yeeeahhh... our bad."

And how does this make it ok? Hey we totally ignored the law and tried to have you killed, whoops.

* The Stormcloaks are clrearly racist, unlike the Imperials. Did you know that the Imperials would have essentially looked the other way about Skyrim's Talos worship if it weren't for Ulfric's rabble-rousing over it? Rabble rousing done after being induced to do so by his Thalmor handlers. Or do you mean "racist" in that they won't let the Stormcloaks be far more clearly racist?


For your racism claim, [citation needed].

And no, the rebellion was started by the Jarl of Markarth. He was the one that offered Talos worship to Ulfric as compensation for removing the forsworn. The empire approved the terms, then reneged them later.

The imperials aren't racist though like he claims. They're just ignorant of other cultures.(I'm going to send you to...wherever it is you people go. You people and your damn jarls. Etc.)

* So you are easily swayed by rousing words instead of thinking things through?

Thinking things through, doesn't it seem like an absolutely horrible idea to let a nation that thrives on subterfuge and spywork freely send spies throughout all your provinces? Or to accept terms of surrender when there's absolutely no threat. Or to abandon your other nations when your home one is threatened. Or to sit on your ass for 200 years and let the empire crumble around you?


* Does he? Bleeding the Empire dry is the Thalmor's optimal plan, but I see Skyrim alone and the Empire's back being broken as an acceptable secondary result of the civil war for the Thalmor. Instead of the Empire being preserved. Peeling the Empire apart has been the long term goal of the Thalmor.

Wrong. Long term goal is the eradication of all mankind. An alliance between skyrim, cyrodiil, hammerfell, and high rock would be a nightmare for the Thalmor.

* And yet he surrounds himself with bloodthirsty people like Galmar Stone-fist.

Cherrypicking. You think his other advisor is bloodthirsty? Even Brunwulf keeps him on if you go imperial. He keeps counsel with more than just Galmar to make sure he has all the info.

* Is "The Bear of Markarth" really a propaganda piece? Take the pro-Foresworn route out of Cidna Mine.

I did that once. It proved that the imperial Jarl was the one causing problems, not Ulfric. Ulfric wanted all Forsworn dead, remember? The execution of his daughter would've been by the Jarl's order. The Bear is quite obviously propaganda.


* I would have shrugged off the assassination of King Torygg had he called it exactly that. But to call that... slaughter a "honorable duel" is an affront. Lemme put it in a more modern anology. Ulfric and Torygg are to have a sword duel... and then Ulfric busts out a submachine gun and fills Torygg with 20 bullet holes. How the hell is that an "honorable duel"? Ulfric is basically pissing on everyone and calling it rain.

Torygg has no combat experience. He wouldn't have won no matter what he did. The terms of the duel allow you to use anything at your disposal. It was formed at the time that shouting was a more common ability of the leaders. If torygg had known magic, he could've used it. Torygg could've backed down from the challenge and it wouldn't even mean he'd no longer be High King(The moot would have to decide). If you don't know the history of skyrim, the significance of the shout in the duel is lost on you.

To me, the people that are pro-Stormcloak tend to be people who prefer to feel instead of think. And have some misconception that Skyrim is the only one with a grudge against the Thalmor.

Funny. With all the racism claims, I tend to feel the same way about the pro-empire people who don't ever actually look into things.

So... you're siding with neither side? Did you completely miss the responses to the absurdities of imperial "racism" and stormcloak "egalitarianism"?

The difference between Tullius's and Ulfric's attitudes is that Tullius can be summed up with "I think it's absurd but whatever..." while Ulfric's is quite cut and dry racial bigotry.

I'm very conflicted about the factions but one thing I know for sure. If the empire is divided, the Thalmor win. The Empire has taken an unfortunate path and there's a lot wrong with it...I can see that. I can also see racism in the Stormcloaks and I don't like that and can't support them. I haven't yet done the Main Quest so I don't know what's coming but I wish there would be an option to divide the Thalmor away from the Empire. Don't tell me if there is, I'll find out. Like I said, very conflicted, especially since my Breton wishes the Forsworn had their land back. Irony is abundant since the Nords feel that way about "their" land. It's a very deep and old story we're in.

Ulfric is being honest to himself, unlike the "good" general who is either ignorant or simply couldn't say it out loud for fear of his wages

In my case it was a little more simplistic -- Skyrim is home to the Nords. Tullius is not a Nord, seems not to care too much for Nordic traditions (given his babbles with Rikke he's quite ignorant and disregarding of their views and traditions in their own land), so as much as Ulfric was a hypocrite and lead on a leash by the Thalmor, I felt if I had to stick my nose in the civil war just for the sake of an entertaining quest line, I'd prefer Stormcloaks. That's after doing both. Delving too deeply into which one might be more evil seems to be a wash to me, I personally wish I could just gut the Thalmor in Skyrim and see what happens with the civil war.

Of course, this would all be simpler if the dragonborn could smack them all upside the head and take charge.

Woulda been awesome to have a third option to unite both factions while renouncing the WGC. Dovahkiin taking the place of Tiber, Tullius as Zurin, and Ulfric as Wulfharth.

Lore folks have been noticing a good resemblence between the two and talos

Tullius Stormcloak

Talos Stormcrown

I'm pretty sure this is quite intentional. We're gonna get us some divine intervention up in this Mundus

Like the OP I'm sometimes having difficulties with understanding why people could side with the empire. For me it is quite obvious the stormcloaks represent the better, more legitimate and more ethical cause.

I understand the worries about the character of Ulfric. Or what the best tactic should be for beating the Thalmor, some arguing that a united empire has a better chance. But I put down a lot of the hostility towards the stormcloaks down to what is called "availability bias":


http://www.skepdic.com/availability.html

http://kestalusrealm.wordpress.com/2011/03/28/confirmation-bias-the-availability-error/

The gist of it: "Anything that creates a vivid image is likely to override other, perhaps more rational, choices one might make." And: "The availability error is the natural tendency to pay more heed, to more easily notice and remember, or that otherwise gets our attention, that data which is more easy to think about and imagine, more vivid, more memorable, more salient to us, and to pay less attention to, even forget, that which doesn’t stand out to us and ‘stick’ in our heads."

When you enter Windhelm there is scene that is vivid and easy to recognize: two drunken louts insult a Dunmer woman, just because she's a Dunmer. The abusers are white and stupid. The victim has a dark skin (and is a woman, to boot). Most westerners will easily recognize what is happening. An American will find it very easy to associate the scene with Redneck, white-trash racism and bigotry against African Americans. Europeans will perhaps think more of skinheads or hooligans abusing muslims or other immigrants. The whole incident is very recognisable and is likely to have a strong or even decisive influence on our evaluation of the Stormcloak cause, even though rationality should ask these questions:
- Are these people even stormcloaks?
- Are two drunken idiots representative of the whole movement?
- How bad is what happened really? (compared to other things that happen in the game, like actual physical violence, organized religious persecution, occupation, murder, executions, ...).

It all comes down to greed and who you think should 'Own' the land. Should the Stormcloaks own it? The Empire? The Thalmor?

Nay, I say kick them all out and let the Forsworn go forth and take over the whole land. Or the Khajiit, they seem to hate the cold, thousands of them 'owning' the land would be amusing!

i am sure I read a book in the game that talked about who lived in Skyrim and 'owned' the land before the Nords conquered it in an earlier Era. Was it the Snow Elves (Falmer) that 'owned' the land? I forget. Hopefully someone more knowledgeable in Elder Scrolls lore can come along and clear that one up.

As a high elf im tempted to join the imperials/thalmor but theyve always been portayed as the cruel and unbending oppressors. they also tried to cut my head off sometime ago.
Nords in general are not painted in a much beter light. Xenophobic, stubborn, and war-born but in the end I still feel the stormcloaks represent the lesser of 2 evils.
Through out the game i empathized more with the misfit argonians and elves living in poverty than the stormcloaks who were "bravely" trying to defend their home from oppression. Especially a certain argonian dock worker in windhelm who maintains a positive outlook on life even though things are bleak. I also helped her get back a stolen amulet only to find out she was once a thief.

Some people might choose based on information that their character has, not information gathered from other people that have read every book in the game. At the point in game where the choice is made most characters have very little information to base on. Your character likely has no idea that Ulfric used to be a Thalmor contact except for the fact that you may have read that here or know it from a previous character run through. Equivalently he also probably has no idea that banning talos worship is the basis for wiping out mankind.

I chose to side with the Empire for my own selfish reasons.

My character was clueless at first, but eventually began to learn some key things. First, he learned that he was "dragonborn". He wasn't sure what that meant at first, but as he made his way in the world defeating enemies (including scores of dragons) and learning about the past, present, and future, his eyes began to open to the limitless possibilities. After learning that the man who founded the Empire was also Dovahkiin, and then later became a god, he began to think that perhaps his destiny was much more than just saving the world from destruction brought on by Alduin.

Once he joined the Dark Brotherhood, and learned of the plot to kill the Emperor, everything suddenly clicked. It was his birthright as Dovahkiin to rule the Empire! HE was to become Emperor some day. And maybe, just maybe, he might even follow in the footsteps of his Dova ancestor, and also become a god!

Well, if the Stormcloaks win and Ulfric declares independence for Skyrim, well... that just won't do! He wants an in-tact Empire to rule! It may take many years to win rulership of the Empire, and he sure doesn't want to spend his first few years as Emperor re-conquering Skyrim.

Besides, Ulfric reminds me too much of Arcturus Mengsk. He plays the part of freedom fighter, but really, he's just doing it because he wants the power for himself.

The Empire only signed the Concordat because half of their legions got decimated by one Thalmor army. Although that army was in turn annihilated, it was a severely pyrrhic victory. The signing was necessary for the continued survival of everyone who WASN'T under the Aldmeri Dominion. A fractious peace is better than assured destruction. As it is, the restriction on Talos worship is more enforced by the Thalmor than the Empire itself. Imperial-controlled cities like Whiterun still have a shrine to Talos, and Tullius also conveniently brushes off Rikke's prayer for Ulfric to Talos when he's executed.

The main character might not have been on the list, but he WAS caught crossing the border illegally. Hadvar/Ralof mention this. That would have marked him out as a criminal regardless, and even though he wasn't on the official list, it's reason enough for punishment except suddenly, Alduin.

Furthermore, the Stormcloaks are far from the noble heroes that everyone likes to think them as. They're basically the Nazis of Skyrim; they preach racial superiority and treat the land as their complete birthright, ignoring the minority rights of other races. That's why the Argonians in Windhelm were forced to live outside the city during Stormcloak's rule, and why the Dunmer were consigned to the Gray Quarter. Ulfric's rule was basically a tyranny of the majority, and he is guilty of genocide to the highest degree. He evicted the natives of the Reach and attempted to wipe them out for no good reason other than "the land belongs to the true sons of Skyrim", and carried out indiscriminate torture/murder of innocents who were Forsworn or Forsworn Sympathizers. Your main character already experiences this injustice during the quest No Escape from Cidhna Mine, albeit to a far lesser degree than how much the Forsworn suffered.

On another note, Nord heaven isn't conventional heaven. People who reach Sovngarde need not necessarily be morally righteous; all they need to do is show valour in battle. This much is clear in the book Sovngarde: a Re-examination, where it states the criteria for entering Sovngarde itself.

And, as a final note, I like how the main quest mirrors itself at the opening and the close.

As the first Stormcloak is about to be executed, he makes a passing remark about how his ancestors smile on him, asking the Imperials "can you say the same?" In Sovngarde, when you talk to the spirit of High King Torygg, he talks about how he faced Ulfric with not only courage but also honour, and asks "can Ulfric say the same?"

What Elisif said was true. Ulfric calculated his supposedly traditional challenge so that he would have the easiest opportunity to kill Torygg without having to assault anyone else. That's not an honorable challenge, that's craven cowardice.

I do believe the real threat to Skyrim are the Thalmor. Maybe they even orchestrated this little civil war, but pushing Ulfric over the edge, when they captured him.

Not sure thought why the Thalmor are so interested in Skyrim. It's mainly desolate, it's a cold, frozen, windy place. What's in it for them? Will it pave the way to take over Cyrodiil and then the rest of Tamriel?

My first character was a true Nord and joined the Stormcloaks. I've completed all the story lines and now I'm playing an Imperial, to see things from the different POV.

(and this is why I love TES games, because those are the only gaming forums, where you can find deep philosophical or political discussions surrounding the lore!)

Stormcloacks want to outlaw Magic .

That alone made my mage to lean more toward the Empire at first

-http://www.imperial-library.info/content/great-war

So what forces were these again?


And reasonable punishment is of course death. Right.


So ridiculously wrong. The closest thing to nazis is the thalmor. You can easily make a comparison between colonial america and britain though.(Remember the tar & feathering of tories?) Except even then, the stormcloaks never sought out and hurt innocents. The dunmer have been living in Windhelm's Snow Quarter since before Ulfric's father was even born. They've never been restricted to it. The Reachmen abduct innocents and sacrifice them to Hircine, murder anyone who isn't forsworn, and give up their very will to hagravens. They are an EXTREMELY hostile force. You were taken in by that sob story but failed to notice that it was the JARL of markarth that executed his daughter. Last I remember, the jarl of Markarth was an imperial supporter.


This is true. Both sides have shown valour in battle. Thats the only requirement(That and impressing Tsun at the bridge)


What dishonour did Ulfric do in the duel? No means of combat were prohibited. Torygg knew the terms as well as Ulfric. Cowardice is sitting by and letting the thalmor dismantle everything that the empire has worked for. Cowards don't lead their mean in the front lines of battle.

The sad truth is that none of this matters. In the end the lore will be written with one side the victor based on what the developers feel would make a good story. So seriously, what does it matter who you side with in your own game?

This, of course, is patently untrue. The only nazi anology that could be in any way close to the truth is an anology with the Thalmor racial ideology.
The Stormcloaks are proud to be Nords, but is that so abnormal? I never heard any statement about racial superioritry, let alone an official supremacist doctrine, from the stormcloaks.

The example of the Argonians and Dunmer is, historically speaking, irrelevant for you point. The US imprisoned more than a 100.000 Japanese people during WW2, including women and children. Lesser known is that the UK did the same: they interned tens of thousands of Italians and Germans (80% of which were Jewish refugees from Germany!) simply because they distrusted them and thought these measures necesarry in wartime. (Ulfic, in fact, doesn't even imprison the dunmer or argonians).
Yet :
1. is there any doubt in your mind that the US and the UK were actually not racist or nazi regimes, but were in fact fighting a nazi regime?
2. would these measures have made you a neutral or, worse, a sympathizer of the other side?

This is what I mean by my higher post. It is sometimes easy to get too focused on very vivid situations that speak to our imagination (like situation in Windhelm) and let this cloud our judgement.