Is there a cap? I thought you could train up five skill points per level, indefinitely, or am I wrong? I don't use training to often so I can't comment on it, but you are right. You should be able to train your character by paying for it. As I've mentioned before, either in this thread or another, Morrowind gave the player the option to opt out of combat if you wished, so long as you avoid enemies who want to engage you. Oblivion and Skyrim gradually made it more difficult to play as an agent or pacifist type character because many of the NPC interactions were removed, like bartering and persuasion (and I mean with EVERY NPC, not just a handful). So if you wanted to play as, say an investor or trader, you should be able to pay for your training rather than first hand experience.

Yes, but what if I want to be an all-purpose god? Skyrim just doesn't allow for it, whereas previous games allowed for both god-like powers and the everyman. When you take away the option to effectively become a god, you're taking away options, which is, in effect, "dumbing down." You can't argue against that. Why should the game limit playstyles simply because YOU didn't like that you could become a god?

Everything that you described here totally negates the "class" system.

Classes in Morrowind and Oblivion were nothing more than a "label", as you put it.

It's actually MORE difficult to change "classes" in Skyrim, because you can't change perks.

There isn't a cap, what I meant was that you could train it as many times as you liked per level rather than five per level, which is much better imo.
Also agreed on the second point. Skyrim doesn't really allow for avoiding combat, which supports the argument that the series is kind of becoming a hack-and-slash deal.

Wait - so the game is "dumbing down" because it doesn't give you an all purpose win button???

(and if you want to be a god, why don't you take a look at all the posts saying X skill is overpowered, even on Master. Apparently becoming a god still isn't impossible...)

And yes, I can argue against it, when the game fundamentals eventually -force- me into becoming that all-purpose god just by playing past a certain amount of hours.

Which wasn't even that high. I started hitting "god mode" in Oblivion about 90 hours in, just by naturally leveling through the main quest, Mage's Guild, and some various side quests.

So yes, when "god" characters are forced on me through natural playing methods (I didn't even "efficient level"!!!), I have a problem with that.

At least now to become a God you have to purposefully spam and overlevel Smithing and Enchanting.

Fair enough, but some of us like "labels." Obviously it's entirely subjective, but I preferred classes over perks. IMO perks should come automatically by leveling the skill.


Skyrim actually does give you an all-purpose win button, but that's because gameplay is generally easier, not because I'm a god. My Morrowind character, who is level 28, could easily beat my Skyrim character (lv 56), into the ground. Becoming a god is still possible, yes, but not to the extent of Morrowind and Oblivion. And the difference is, Morrowind and Oblivion still provided challenges for "gods." Need proof? Play the Bloodmoon and Tribunal expansions. Those were practically designed for high-level characters.

Srsly, you label having to put thought into the distribution of your perk points "dumbing down"? I think it is the contrary, you have to think about the distribution beforehand, where as in Oblivion and Morrowind you had to keep track off your skill increases in order to get a good char. It is streamlining, but it is not dumbing down!

Skyrim is "dumbed down" in many aspects, but the skill system isn't part of that!

Forced perks take away choice.

The current perk system gives you choice, by allowing you to decide what direction your character takes within the individual skills and what to specialize in.

And sure, I like "labels" to, but they have absolutely no bearing on gameplay. If you want a label so bad, pull up a word document, name your class, and give it a description. It is LITERALLY the same effect as doing it in Morrowind.

They will remove Argonians and have the Black Marsh sink into the ocean, in order to streamline Tamriel.

Yes, except one is in-game, and the other isn't.


If you appreciate the streamlining of the series, sure, go right ahead. But I'm not going to stick around for TES VII: Medieval CoD.

Those superficial labels are important for the player to feel a deeper connection with the character and actual role-playing. RPGing isn't about everything having some function to assist in your character's advancement, it's about just playing and imagination. That's the heart of a good RPG.

Even the self-appointed "casual gamer" (myself) can see that stats and attributes works in the opposite direction of what all the hardcoe roleplaying fans are always asking for - realism and immersion.

Here′s my point: you are in Balmora, you are role-playing your character and thinking about what the next thing your character would realistically do in-character...and what you end up doing is going someplace to summon critters that you can attack so you can grind your swordskill because you realized that you are soon due to level up and you want that +5 attribute bonus...who just stepped WAY out of character???

Exactly what I wanted to say, thank you good sir.

I doubt it. Bethesda took a lot of things Obsidian did right in New Vegas (companions, reputation, quality of writing, heavier difficulty options) and threw it all away for Skyrim when it certainly would have benefitted from several of them.

Bethesda is one of those companies that will only do things their way. And as of this point their way consists of streamlining gameplay and making pretty graphics with the occasional mod integration while disregarding everything else.

No prob! We need to hurry this discussion up, we're way over the post limit!

No...Skyrim was well into development before New Vegas was released so there is no way that they would have had the time to draw from the experience of New Vegas and implement it into Skyrim.

Actually he's done a pretty decent job of showing how stats aren't present.

Does a Nord start with more or less Stamina, Health, or Magika than an Orc, Redguard, or Dark Elf?

How much damage does a Nord with an Iron Dagger with a One-Hand Skill Level of 10, with no Perks, do when compared to an Orc, High Elf, or Bosmer with the same constraints?

How much does my Health go up if I put my Level Up choice in Magicka every level?

They had a year from F:NV to Skyrim. That's enough time to at least include some of these things.

Okay, you got me there.

Reputation and writing probably wouldn't have made it, but companion controls and hardcoe options could have been done. But they weren't.

So I still have no reason to believe Bethesda is going to change based on how well Skyrim sold. And I think the result is going to be a lot of angry Fallout fans come 2013 or 2014.

Yes, agree here........hmmm...gives me a mod idea to have an in game id tag to player name like: cleric based on perk choice in the tree........
but, if you took smithiing, with restoration, and strayed from the cleric path with less restoration, you would get another label.....

Paladin, cleric, etc.

I like it.

thanks.

Yes...hardcoe mode would have been reasonably easy to add, it won′t take long before there is a mod that implements it properly. But factions and reputation would have been implemented poorly if rushed and done more harm than good.

The perk system is fine, I don't have a problem with it. What I would like to see is more skills, or perks, for further specialization. It could be improved on greatly. But of course, that depends on how Bethesda chooses to make the game more complex to make those skills useful.

Yes, the biggest flaw with the perk system is that I can look at the perk tree and immediately rule out a bunch of perks that I would simply never pick since they are just a waste of points...(hmmm...let′s see +20% damage with my weapon or....slightly more recharge with each soul gem...when do I ever run out of soul gems to charge my enchantments????)

I know, right? Some are useful, but many of the perks don't serve any real purpose and they certainly don't contribute to the act of role-playing. It might've been better to have 20-25 skills similar to previous Elder Scrolls titles and offer just a handful of perks for each skill, perks that would have really unique purposes.

I agree with the last part, but I think the perk system could be improved without adding more perks. Instead of the very one dimensional magnitude increasing Perks and ranked perks, I would rather they put in Perks that grant you unique abilities or spells that further add specialization and add more tools in your belt. Shield Bash, Silent Roll, Eagle Eye, Impact etc. are fantastic concepts of Perks - the problem is they are few and far between. As far as combat goes, there just isn't enough. There are not enough defense tactics or offensive tactics you can use. For spells, you pretty much chain spam Incenerate. For melee, you either assassinate or power attack/spam elemental frenzy swing. For Archery, at least there is some aiming but it is pretty rinse and repeat. Blocking is great! Having the ability to actively block attacks effectively is fantastic. Dodging however really is non existant outside of taking 2 steps left or right or backpedaling to avoid an attack. Your other defensive tactic is to run and line of sight. Pretty shallow.

I think Perks need to give you more of a sense of your character which they do not really outside of the damage you deal or the magnitude of the ability - which could have been accomplished in a much better way (such as selecting these skills from the start or at trainers to become your Primary/Major/Minor).

Archery

1 Explosive Arrow - Fires an Explosive Arrow that deals Physical and Fire damage in a Radius with a chance of staggering the targets affected.
2 Pin Down - Arrows that strike your target's legs have a chance of immobilizing your target for y seconds.
3 Headshot - Headshots now deal 2x damage with a chance of killing inferior foes instantly.
4 Rapid Fire - For y duration arrows can be drawn and fired much more quickly however they deal x less damage.
5 Eagle Eye - *no change
6 Steady Hand - only 1 rank
7 Bull's Eye - *no change
8 Heart Seeker - While zoomed in, you become aware of your target's every move. Target's hearts become visible and a successful strike to your target's heart will kill them. (small hit box)
9 Ranger - *no change
10 Shove - Right Clicking while not zoomed in will shove your target back staggering them and pushing them back y yds. This ability consumes Stamina.
11 Endless Quiver (EQ AA) - You will never consume the arrows you have equipped.
12 Pierce Armor - Successful attacks lower your target's armor by x% for y duration.
13 Power Shot - After drawing your bow for y seconds your bow becomes energized granting you a 50% damage increase.
14 Trick Shot - Grants you the ability to alter the course of your arrow in flight slightly.
15 Silencing Shot - Fires an arrow that Silences your target for y seconds.
16 Misdirect - Fire and arrow and marks a target for y duration as hostile. Targets will attack your misdirected target until they kill it or the duration ends.

Overdraw is now applied to you innately once you choose Archery as your Primary perk. Every 10 levels, you obtain a new rank (at level 50 you would have rank 5).
Critical Shot is now applied to you innately once you choose Archery as your Primary perk. Every 10 levels, you obtain a new rank (at level 30 you would have rank 3)