Constant removal of features, what is next? : V - Skyrim

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 5:58 pm

I guess replaying all of Morrowind + Expansions just 2 months ago = nostalgic imagination?

You said.

Please all of morrowinds quests were eather
A. guard guy from Point A to point B
B. Kill guy at lcation B
C. Bring guy at location A item B

And I was saying because people are nostalgic about Morrowind they don't see that.

Dear Bethesda, please put the attribute feature back in the game because as a hardcoe, serious fan my immersion is ruined when I don′t get to grind my agility by repeatedly jumping off a balcony to improve acrobatics before I level up.

You perfectly illustrate the problem with the old attribute system.

No, "Armsman" is the epitome of redundant. "I'm going to get better at one-handed weapons so I can take a perk to get better at one-handed weapons". Give me a break.

Attributes were redundant. I'm going to raise my intelligence so I can raise my magicka. Or better yet I'm going to raise my blade skill, so I can raise my strength which will raise my weapon damage already raised by the skill increase.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:35 pm

You said.

And I was saying because people are nostalgic about Morrowind they don't see that.

ohh [censored], my bad.

total misunderstanding, thats what I get for being up at 5am with no sleep for nearly 24 hours

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:55 am

They will remove Nirn, and replace it with a new realm

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:57 am

Attributes were redundant. I'm going to raise my intelligence so I can raise my magicka. Or better yet I'm going to raise my blade skill, so I can raise my strength which will raise my weapon damage already raised by the skill increase.

And that's different than "I'm going to raise my Stamina to carry more stuff" how? The whole idea was to stop people from increasing this to increase that... and it's exactly what my coworkers are doing. I'm taking magicka so all of my numbers line up nice and pretty at 290 each.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:39 pm

Thank god character building will be widened and changed with mods.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:12 pm

And that's different than "I'm going to raise my Stamina to carry more stuff" how? The whole idea was to stop people from increasing this to increase that... and it's exactly what my coworkers are doing. I'm taking magicka so all of my numbers line up nice and pretty at 290 each.

You criticised a perk for being redundant in your defense of attributes I was pointing out that attriubutes were already just as redundant. In the attribtue system you have to carefully plan out how you level skills if you wanted to get the most benefit out of leveling. Its different because your carrying capacity is directly linked to your base(unmoddified) stamina. When you raise stamina at level up your carrying capacity goes up in the same stroke.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:37 pm

snip

Good post. Thats pretty much what I was getting at, they have no attributes they just split up driived stats. You can't measure any characters attributes because liek in my example if you don't raise all the seperate factors ata the same time it jus tdoesn't make sense if your looking at it in there view.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:22 pm

Maces.....they are definately the enxt weapon type to go....same as short sword dissappeared in Skyrim.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 12:48 pm

Well, http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1302338-a-small-observation-on-the-amount-of-spells-in-the-game/ Even if the spells look flashier and cooler now. And about attributes, what you people aren't getting is that it's not about the effects being there but about choice. There could be just one stat called "stats" that would give you everything. And how was it someone put it, now there would not be just 3 apples that weigh 4 pounds but 1 really big apple that weighs 12 pounds! Wouldn't that be just amazing ? Well no, because it's about choise. In former TES games you could choose a lot more how your character developed. If you wanted to be able to carry a lot you didn't have to have great stamina, if you wanted to have great stamina you didn't have to be able to carry a lot. You could be that mage with a huge manapool that churned out large blasts of magic and then ran, you could be that sorcerer that doesn't do the big flashy stuff but can churn out spells endlessly, and you could be well rounded as a mage. But in Skyrim you can only be well rounded, nothing more.

Removing choice is hardly ever good and it most certainly wasn't when it comes to spells and attributes.

What is next ? I guess next up is the example I gave with there just being one stat called "stats", and you can be a mage or a warrior or whatever you want, but you can't define yourself as anything. Just a world full of jacks of all trades but masters of none. And even if perks help with this there needs to be at least a few thousand perks then to reach the kind of choice you could have in previous games, not just a hundred or two of them. And designing a few thousand perks is just silly so why not just return to the old system that took care of this problem just fine ?

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 7:08 pm

What is next ? I guess next up is the example I gave with there just being one stat called "stats", and you can be a mage or a warrior or whatever you want, but you can't define yourself as anything. Just a world full of jacks of all trades but masters of none. And even if perks help with this there needs to be at least a few thousand perks then to reach the kind of choice you could have in previous games, not just a hundred or two of them. And designing a few thousand perks is just silly so why not just return to the old system that took care of this problem just fine ?

Class based systems are stupid. Particularily when you choose it when you don't even know what the game will be about. Nothing more stupid than a game that laugh at you when you realize that Atronach sign isn't working as you imagined and crumple your gaming experience. Of course it could be worse, as you could go to forum and tell your problem only to be belittled by other players because it's your fault if you chose that sign and didn't find how to abuse it.

And Ellert, going back to the auto-perking skills is precisely dumbing down the game. Congratulations.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:33 pm

Class based systems are stupid. Particularily when you choose it when you don't even know what the game will be about. Nothing more stupid than a game that laugh at you when you realize that Atronach sign isn't working as you imagined and crumple your gaming experience. Of course it could be worse, as you could go to forum and tell your problem only to be belittled by other players because it's your fault if you chose that sign and didn't find how to abuse it.

And Ellert, going back to the auto-perking skills is precisely dumbing down the game. Congratulations.

I was not talking about auto perking skills like in Oblivion, I was talking about how perks are supposed to fill in for what attributes and skills used to fill in along with spell making and more spell variety. Making the player reach the desired effects of perks by raising their stats and skills in the correct manner. And I did not mean to say the old systems were perfect, they worked fine and were better but far from perfect. Bethesda shouldn't just remove that system and make another one that doesn't give you as much variety but instead they should work to improve the old system so it works better while keeping the variety it used to have.

And then there is another way to view this. Why not have both the old system and perks ? Why does one have to go for the other to exist ? And don't start spouting about balance because that doesn't matter that much. Every TES game so far has had broken balance and so does Skyrim, so that's an invalid argument.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:50 pm

For those who loves meaningless and complex numbers, go play the tabletop rpg Rolemaster.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:20 pm

I'm missing them more than I thought.
Then again, I thought the perks couldn't possibly svck this much.

I like perks. For the most part.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 10:52 pm

I think perks are pretty damn stupid. Although I wouldn't care so much if they kept the perks system as-is and simply brought back the regular attributes.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 11:50 pm

What do I choose at level-up to increase my hand-to-hand damage if I don't wear armor?
Carry Weight does not change when fortifying stamina.

Conclusion: Strength is NOT still in-game, no matter how much you pervert the concept.

Endurance governed health gained EVERY level. Skyrim does not give you any increase in health unless specifically chosen.
Conclusion: what you have in Skyrim is only Health, not endurance.

How does one reduce the chance of being staggered in Light Armor?
Conclusion: Skyrim does not have agility.

This is the closest to correct you have, except that Intelligence also affected magicka regen. Skyrim... doesn't offer this combination.

In Morrowind, willpower also helped you shrug off magic. Same for Daggerfall. Oblivion incorrectly states that it has this effect. How can a pure warrior achieve the same effect?
Conclusion: Oblivion was bugged, and Skyrim does not contain willpower.

It's totally different. If you want to argue that, I'll gladly show you the exact hand-wrenching effort required to move at maximum speed in Skyrim... and my Oblivion and Morrowind characters will *still* move faster in the long haul.

No, "Armsman" is the epitome of redundant. "I'm going to get better at one-handed weapons so I can take a perk to get better at one-handed weapons". Give me a break.

Conclusion: Skyrim lacks attributes.

Conclusion: No attributes to see here.

All you have shown here is that you don't like the implementation - with is a 100% valid, subjective point of view.

You have not shown that they don't exist in the game. They obviously do. You just don't like how they exist.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:16 am

I think perks are pretty damn stupid. Although I wouldn't care so much if they kept the perks system as-is and simply brought back the regular attributes.

I could take it or leave it, but since Bethesda cut a lot of skills and the attribute system out when comparing past titles, the perk system works great for Skyrim. I think the reason they did it is because players felt like they were trapped into being one class throughout the life of their character, whereas with Skyrim, you can change your character's fate a little easier.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:24 pm

I agree and can see what you are saying, but I think the fact that others can not directly see or manipulate these changes makes them believe that they have been removed, which the whole tree has. It's like Bethesda making a change in a patch and saying "We have removed book clutter (unreadable books)". If they had said "We have removed book clutter to improve performance in interiors". no one would care and be happy. With the first, people would see that as removing features (probably my example is not the best, but still) and would likely complain that it's stupid. If they didn't say anything though, would anyone really notice? I know this is a big thing for people as this is very visible, but I agree that most of the attributes remain in some way.

On the other hand though I would want these things to be more visible, like the old system. I mean you might not know that some perks give you the benefit of old attributes so you might spend them elsewhere, limiting your abilities. Perks should not be a replacement for an entire attribute tree. As someone said, who puts stuff in the lockpicking skill anyway? They are missing out on more loot if they don't know what is going on or they run out of perks. At least with the old LUCK you know that it's there and you can improve your chances of getting more loot by topping it up. Your characters skill should be based around attributes, not perks. If I was going through the game role-playing a character with no perks I would be shafted - a lot. Which again, comes to less choice. There is also no disposition like said and that made me sad, when I couldnt get people to like me at all. It also made the speech skill pointless to me. There is a lot of simplyfing and in this case it may be there, but it gives you less choice and doesn't work as well.

Playing Skyrim with no perks is shafting you no more than if I played Morrowind without increasing Attributes. In fact, I cannot level without putting points into Attributes, with actually adds less choice in Morrowind than you have in Skyrim, because you -can- level without putting a point in perks.

Purposefully self gimping your character would be giving you the shaft, no matter what mechanics of character building are used.

You say perks should not be a replacement for an entire set of Attributes, and I say they should be. I say that Perks are superior than Attributes, and offer far more customization than Attributes ever could.

It's purely subjective.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 4:49 pm

Though attributes are present in limited form through health and stamina, it's not equal. "True" colors are devoting too much time to 'prove' attributes exist. Yes, my character has strength and that's an attribute- but that is not the same event Bethesda has in earlier ES games.

Attributes weren't even the same from Morrowind to Oblivion. They didn't all even do the same thing game to game.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:58 am

I could take it or leave it, but since Bethesda cut a lot of skills and the attribute system out when comparing past titles, the perk system works great for Skyrim. I think the reason they did it is because players felt like they were trapped into being one class throughout the life of their character, whereas with Skyrim, you can change your character's fate a little easier.

Some people may like that you can change that easily, but for me it comes down to character vs. player. When we had the class system, it felt more realistic, because my character had to seriously train himself in another area to become better at it. Sure, you were basically trapped into one class, but you could still work on getting those misc skills as high as your major skills if you so choose to. I also liked the class labels, made me feel a bit more accomplished.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:36 am

i cant wait for tes 6

Me either, then we'll all be in the PS4 'Hardware & Software Issues' forum threatening class action lawsuits for the buggy mess that will be TES 6 on the Sony console.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:55 am

Some people may like that you can change that easily, but for me it comes down to character vs. player. When we had the class system, it felt more realistic, because my character had to seriously train himself in another area to become better at it. Sure, you were basically trapped into one class, but you could still work on getting those misc skills as high as your major skills if you so choose to. I also liked the class labels, made me feel a bit more accomplished.

I agree with you. I liked that you could invent your own class in Morrowind and Oblivion, make up whatever description you wanted, and really get immersed in your character. The fatal flaw with Morrowind was that if you weren't adept in a particular skill from the start, say for instance Spears, then it was virtually impossible to train your character in Spears because you would end up getting killed before you gained any experience.

» Fri Jun 08, 2012 4:16 am

I agree with you. I liked that you could invent your own class in Morrowind and Oblivion, make up whatever description you wanted, and really get immersed in your character. The fatal flaw with Morrowind was that if you weren't adept in a particular skill from the start, say for instance Spears, then it was virtually impossible to train your character in Spears because you would end up getting killed before you gained any experience.

But even then you could just use a trainer to get it up. Which I liked, a lot I might add. I'm not a huge fan of the training cap in Skyrim. If I want to make my character immensely powerful simply by spending gold, why can't I? It's a single-player game, after all.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 3:09 pm

Although, this is vague, short sighted, and the overall tone spews of bitterness and lack of imagination, I do agree to the overall point to how the game has interpreted reputation for you in previous iterations. But, with that, you then have to argue if "Reputation" in itself is a gameplay feature that ANY game, in this era, executes well. Its not important to gamers now. Game animations, graphics, and cinematics are enough to fill the void of narrative depth. If you dont agree, you and all of our wallets beg to differ. Focus on what it does have. It makes you happier.

Fallout New Vegas had a very deep reputation system for a modern game. Not quite as huge as Daggerfall's but it got some important things right:

- Helping one faction ran the risk of pissing someone else off. Every faction was interconnected in one way or another, so you had to be careful whose side you choose to take least you might anger someone you were previously friendly with.
- Factions reacted realistically to you based on your reputation. Friendly factions are more willing to help you out, and factions that hate you might attack you.
- You could effectively disguise yourself by wearing the clothing of another faction (though you would have to remove it if approaching an enemy of that faction as they would attack you)

Modern games can still do reputation well, but Skyrim doesn't do it at all. All you get for your deeds in terms of recognition are guard comments. No one ever acknowledges you are a Stormclock if you go to Solitude having sided with Ulfric, performing the final Dark Brotherhood mission does nothing. Rebuilding the Thieves Guild does nothing but give you more fences (which of itself is nullified by a Speech perk), the members of the College of Winterhold continue to address you as a newbie even if you are the arch-mage, and so on and so on and so on.

The extent of the reputation in Skyrim is random comments about your deeds. As a gameplay mechanic, it is nonexistant, and it hurts the experience.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 8:48 pm

Well, http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1302338-a-small-observation-on-the-amount-of-spells-in-the-game/ Even if the spells look flashier and cooler now. And about attributes, what you people aren't getting is that it's not about the effects being there but about choice. There could be just one stat called "stats" that would give you everything. And how was it someone put it, now there would not be just 3 apples that weigh 4 pounds but 1 really big apple that weighs 12 pounds! Wouldn't that be just amazing ? Well no, because it's about choise. In former TES games you could choose a lot more how your character developed. If you wanted to be able to carry a lot you didn't have to have great stamina, if you wanted to have great stamina you didn't have to be able to carry a lot. You could be that mage with a huge manapool that churned out large blasts of magic and then ran, you could be that sorcerer that doesn't do the big flashy stuff but can churn out spells endlessly, and you could be well rounded as a mage. But in Skyrim you can only be well rounded, nothing more.

Removing choice is hardly ever good and it most certainly wasn't when it comes to spells and attributes.

What is next ? I guess next up is the example I gave with there just being one stat called "stats", and you can be a mage or a warrior or whatever you want, but you can't define yourself as anything. Just a world full of jacks of all trades but masters of none. And even if perks help with this there needs to be at least a few thousand perks then to reach the kind of choice you could have in previous games, not just a hundred or two of them. And designing a few thousand perks is just silly so why not just return to the old system that took care of this problem just fine ?

No, instead, if you wanted to carry a lot of stuff, you ended up doing a lot of damage. What if you want to carry a lot of stuff, but you don't want to do a lot of melee damage? You can't do that.

It's the same removal of choice that you accuse Skyrim of! You just preferred the methods, so to you its okay.

As for well rounded - I don't believe that at all. The way past games worked, you weren't well rounded, you were an all purpose GOD! Your skills and Attributes all leveled to 100 just by naturally playing the game! When I played Oblivion - I didn't want to be a fast character, but I had to start increasing Speed because just by naturally playing the game and exploring the content (not even "too much" for one character, I did the main quest, was working on the Mage's Guild questline, along with some various side quests!) I leveled so high that I maxed out all the Attributes that mattered for my chosen build (Strength, Endurance, Intelligence) and had to start increasing other stuff! That's not choice! When characters all eventually level to the same ending status anyways, that's not choice. Skyrim's system offers far more choice, because you actually have to decide what your character is going to specialize in. Yea, you may level all the way up to level 81, and have level 100 in every skill, but you'll still be limited in what perks set your character apart.

» Thu Jun 07, 2012 6:52 pm

Fallout New Vegas had a very deep reputation system for a modern game. Not quite as huge as Daggerfall's but it got some important things right:

- Helping one faction ran the risk of pissing someone else off. Every faction was interconnected in one way or another, so you had to be careful whose side you choose to take least you might anger someone you were previously friendly with.
- Factions reacted realistically to you based on your reputation. Friendly factions are more willing to help you out, and factions that hate you might attack you.
- You could effectively disguise yourself by wearing the clothing of another faction (though you would have to remove it if approaching an enemy of that faction as they would attack you)

Offtopic: I certainly do hope, that Beth is going to include the good parts of F:NV like the Reputation system or hardcoe Mode into Fallout 4

OnTopic: A (real) reputation system was last seen in a Beth game in Morrowind. Even Oblivion had it poorly implemented.

//edit

To the post above me: That's what I like about the Skyrim system as well. An all purpose god isn't exactly possible!