And if you read he said

"Speed is not in Skyrim as it has been in past games. However, a higher Stamina allows you to sprint for longer, so it is simply implemented in a different fashion. Not different enough to call it a "lack of depth"."

he even said speed was not in the game as it previously was. However all the other attributes are.

I tell you a color is blue.

You tell me it's red.

When in reality, you just won't admit it's blue because you don't like the shade. It's a navy blue instead of a royal blue.

This is exactly what you are doing with this argument.

You don't like the way the Attribute effects are implemented. That's fine. But they are there. That cannot be disputed. A Heavy Armor perk that decreases staggering; A (ranked) Restoration perk that increases Magicka regen; 2 Lockpicking perks that increase treasure and gold chances when looting chests; One-Handed and Two-Handed perks that increase melee damage; increase in Encumbrance via increasing Stamina; Health, Magicka, and Stamina increasing by putting points directly into them.

The effects are still there. FACT.

It can be disputed, and I do so.
I resent that you call manifestly false statements 'facts', all in caps no less.
Perks are not attributes.

You try affecting someones disposition until they attack you, or conversely, try to talk a hostile into being peaceful.
You cant. Its not in the game.

Sheath your weapon. Yield. Bam, a hostile will become peaceful.

If you're talking about bandits in the wild, then I'd like to see where you could do that in past games.

Disposition was not an Attribute. It was a separate modifier.

So your saying if an attribute gets you better prices, and a perk gives you better prices they dont have the same function?

If only sheathing the weapon actually worked more than 1/ 10.
And I still cant get them to attack me, as they have no disposition, as there is no personality.

Where? Lol.
Morrowind of course, where my diplomat Nerevarine permanently pacified the outcast ashlanders by getting their disposition to 100.

I know its a seperate modifier.
I bring it up because its the attributes-skills interplay that allowed it in the first place.

What attributes did? How about determine spell chance based on skill and Intelligence.
You try failing a spell in Skyrim. Woops, you cant.

odd seathing a weapon has worked on every towns-person or guard I have ever attacked.

Spell chance hasn't existed since Oblivion...

You are really grasping at straws here.

Who ever said I thought Oblivion was a good TES game?
This thread is about removal of features.

TES has been bleeding features for a long time now. Leading to Skyrim, which is a beautiful and very shallow game.
It doesnt even have armour degradation. There is no learning curve or statisfaction of figuring things out.
There is winning, and winning hard in Skyrim, there is no failure.

this is the game-skyrim- where I learned Bethesda could make an Elder Scrolls game that was tossed back on the shelf with the other games not currently being played.

Bethesda's first- just a game. It was fun while it lasted.

Anyway, you won't lose many bets wondering what will be cut next. I'd say character development can't be cut anymore- there isn't much left.

You can't beat the power of nostalgic imagination.

Which is good because they were utterly pointless attributes that made leveling a &)*&)*$@ chore if you wanted to get your maximum benefit out of it. I shouldn't need a page of &)*&)* notes to manage how many skill increases I get so can get maximum attributes. Show of hands how many people on the PC downloaded a mod for either Morrowind or Oblivion at one point that made it so you always gained three five point attribtue bonuses no matter what skills you level.

And in oblivion or Morrowind the mage can have 100 in strength whats your point? Stamina factors into your damage by letting you power attack more.
Your argument is completely STUPID as your basically saying If I build my mage like a warrior he's just as good as a warrior. If I build my warrior like mage he's just as good as a mage.

Don't you get a shout to summon a dragon to our aid in battle, and another one that summons warriors from the afterlife.

The reputation system did nothing in Oblivion you just had a screen with a visable rank. People liked you more when you did good stuff, the same applies in Skyrim. People who like you will say stuff like. "Its a fine day when you around" or other happy greetings reputation is still there is simply no longer an unrealistic number we magically know.

The haggle slider was pointless just a waste of time to set it just right.(and once speech was maxed it did nothing). All Skyrim does is set the slide bar automatically. And there is reputation earn the title of Thane. (which is done by doing quests for people and impressing the Jarl). And guards are more forgiving of your crimes. If you've helped someone out a bit they might not care if you take a few things from there house or even pick there pocket.
Dispostion is still there its simply invisible to us and now its effect by actions instead of a spining wheel and bribes that lets you max out disposition no matter your skill level.

I guess replaying all of Morrowind + Expansions just 2 months ago = nostalgic imagination?

Oh dude, some of the gameplay elements of Morrowind are still awesome and if you look at the quantity of quests and guilds, Morrowind beats Skyrim to death. That's all there is to it. I don't mind if they reduce the quantity to a certain level and make them a better quality, that's what they did with Oblivion, but what they did to the questlines in Skyrim is just sad.


But! You can't whine about removed features in Skyrim, if they were already removed in Oblivion. Did you think Beth miraculously inserts features they already removed? Come on.

Morrowind did have higher quantities of quests, but they still all cut down to the same quest types in Skyrim, which is what he was talking about.

Then go play Morrowind, I'm sure you will enjoy it a lot.

People have been whinging about enchanting, smithing and alchemy. Too overpowered they say. It roons my immershun they say.

If they disappear next time, it will be because those with no self control demanded they be gone. Like 100% Chameleon!

We lost top and bottom armor(svcks for modded armor) so no more gloves or boots in the next one, just unitard armor. Ring and necklace combined into one piece as a dual powered item called ringneck. Two slots will give the player less confusion and streamline the whole outfitting process. Damn it, I cant wait.

What do I choose at level-up to increase my hand-to-hand damage if I don't wear armor?
Carry Weight does not change when fortifying stamina.

Conclusion: Strength is NOT still in-game, no matter how much you pervert the concept.


Endurance governed health gained EVERY level. Skyrim does not give you any increase in health unless specifically chosen.
Conclusion: what you have in Skyrim is only Health, not endurance.



How does one reduce the chance of being staggered in Light Armor?
Conclusion: Skyrim does not have agility.


This is the closest to correct you have, except that Intelligence also affected magicka regen. Skyrim... doesn't offer this combination.


In Morrowind, willpower also helped you shrug off magic. Same for Daggerfall. Oblivion incorrectly states that it has this effect. How can a pure warrior achieve the same effect?
Conclusion: Oblivion was bugged, and Skyrim does not contain willpower.


It's totally different. If you want to argue that, I'll gladly show you the exact hand-wrenching effort required to move at maximum speed in Skyrim... and my Oblivion and Morrowind characters will *still* move faster in the long haul.


No, "Armsman" is the epitome of redundant. "I'm going to get better at one-handed weapons so I can take a perk to get better at one-handed weapons". Give me a break.


Conclusion: Skyrim lacks attributes.


Conclusion: No attributes to see here.

I agree and can see what you are saying, but I think the fact that others can not directly see or manipulate these changes makes them believe that they have been removed, which the whole tree has. It's like Bethesda making a change in a patch and saying "We have removed book clutter (unreadable books)". If they had said "We have removed book clutter to improve performance in interiors". no one would care and be happy. With the first, people would see that as removing features (probably my example is not the best, but still) and would likely complain that it's stupid. If they didn't say anything though, would anyone really notice? I know this is a big thing for people as this is very visible, but I agree that most of the attributes remain in some way.

On the other hand though I would want these things to be more visible, like the old system. I mean you might not know that some perks give you the benefit of old attributes so you might spend them elsewhere, limiting your abilities. Perks should not be a replacement for an entire attribute tree. As someone said, who puts stuff in the lockpicking skill anyway? They are missing out on more loot if they don't know what is going on or they run out of perks. At least with the old LUCK you know that it's there and you can improve your chances of getting more loot by topping it up. Your characters skill should be based around attributes, not perks. If I was going through the game role-playing a character with no perks I would be shafted - a lot. Which again, comes to less choice. There is also no disposition like said and that made me sad, when I couldnt get people to like me at all. It also made the speech skill pointless to me. There is a lot of simplyfing and in this case it may be there, but it gives you less choice and doesn't work as well.

Though attributes are present in limited form through health and stamina, it's not equal. "True" colors are devoting too much time to 'prove' attributes exist. Yes, my character has strength and that's an attribute- but that is not the same event Bethesda has in earlier ES games.

I actually posted some thoughts on this as an explanation as to why I'm not missing attributes as much as I thought I would.

http://www.gamesas.com/topic/1331880-what-makes-a-true-rpg/page__view__findpost__p__20036634

I'm thinking we'll get some of our beloved complexity back in the next console generation. A bigger world, maybe better factional warfare, random encounters etc. A more dynamic world. And more weapon/skill/magic types and such.

I'm sure Bethesda won't go: Yeah it's the same game but looks better. They'll have some selling points in the next installment and I'm betting it'll be either A real big world that makes you go wow over everything or that you can do much more aand have more choice and customization.

Dear Bethesda, please put the attribute feature back in the game because as a hardcoe, serious fan my immersion is ruined when I don′t get to grind my agility by repeatedly jumping off a balcony to improve acrobatics before I level up.

I'm missing them more than I thought.
Then again, I thought the perks couldn't possibly svck this much.

On the whole, I'd prefer jumping down the street for the hell of it. Then again, if you have the (mis)fortune of catching my rare public server matches of Killing Floor, I'm the idiot that bunny hops his way back to his preferred defensive position. Maybe I just like jumping...

I love the perk system it has given me far more ability to customize my character then the previous systems did.


In Morrowind and Oblivion all my characters always ended with 100 attributes and 100 skills no matter the race or class I played, making the choise of warrior/mage/theif at the beginign pointless.

with perks I may have 100 in each skill but my mage character is far diffrent from my warrior characters.