crossbows are supposed to be a lot more powerful than a bow as that is their job. They come into play more against armor wearers. The downside is that they are a lot slower to reload as you have to pull the string back.

I find people like this to be funny. There is something called "Self-Control".

I can get off three arrows with auriels bow in the time of one bolt. That svcker is fast!

Yeah...its like saying "i'm a poor guy,i've buyed a Lamborghini but i don't want to go at 200 mph

Zephyr is where its at if you want a super speedy bow (or want to use bows without perking for them)

Being able to make every other weapon broken is irrelevant. Some people want to use the Crossbow without it being leagues ahead of all other ranged combat weapons. The only Crossbows available on the game are better than Daedric quality bows which is where the problem lies. Crossbows have the damage of a Daedric bow and the speed of a Long Bow on top of a built in stagger.

Not using it is only a half assed solution and the end result is a player who wants a balanced game is missing out on content because Bethesda can't be bothered to balance their game. Just because you don't understand gameplay balance doesn't make it nonsense and calling it such doesn't refute an argument.

It wouldn't be hard for Bethesda to make the Steel Crossbow low-mid tier and the Dwemer Crossbow high tier. That way people who want a broken weapon can smith and enchant it all the like and get the same result, while those who want to use a Crossbow without being forced to play on Novice can do so.

Some people do like to walk around on a power trip and I can appreciate that but people need to understand not everyone wants an easy adventure or to roleplay an immortal who one shot kills everything.

An unenchanted dragonbone bow does 20 base damage.
The lowest grade crossbow does 19.
This is by no means enough to one-shot all enemies even on the lowest difficulty level.

So yeah, that it is overpowered is just baloney.

It may become that way, through application of perks, smithing, enchanting and alchemy, but this is wholly a choice.
I prefer to play on normal difficulty level with an Auriel's bow that does 100 base damage, took me a while to tweak things so it would be that way. I enjoy playing like that and its by no means enough damage to one-shot even moderate enemies.

This is the way I like to play, and the game allows me to do that.
You can make an iron dagger that does more damage, if you like, and you can also stick to the base damage.

This is a choice and the overpowered argument is baloney, the numbers do not support it.

Bow damage doesn't work like that. There's a fairly complicated formula that involves archery skill, enchantments, overdraw perk, and arrow damage. A small difference in base damage can contribute to a considerable increase in overall damage. So that 9 base damage will translate to a much higher difference.


Ok, let's say you want to buy Dawnguard chiefly for the vampire lord. Now let us assume, for the sake of argument, that said vamp lord svcked the big one. Would you simply 'avoid it', or would you let your opinion be known on the forums in the hopes that something would be done about it?


I find people that contribute to threads without reading even half the posts funny. I LOVE crossbows, ergo I want to use one from as early as possible. Self-control has nothing to do with it. If you had bothered to read even half my posts on this thread, you'd know that I currently play on master with a long bow, iron arrows, and hide armor. You think I have problems with self-control?

I'd update the OP with my new found knowledge of the crossbow's not-quite-so-overpowered-ness, but this topic is about to hit the post limit so whatever.

Listen to him, he's got the right idea.

Don't don't don't complain. People did that and they ended up dumbing down and nerfing Smithing. It's a single player game. Keep your gob shut and if you don't like it don't use or do it. Why screw it up for anyone else? Not hurting your gameplay.

Let me rephrase this.

The thing is, in a single player game like this, as many have probably stated, it is all about choice. Taking my example with the Smithing, a small abount of people made comments about how fast it was to level Smithing. For me, that was great as it helped me get my Dragon Armor (though looking back it still took me til I was level 45 as I had a bugger of a time finding ore and pelts). I can honestly say that I am certain how *I* played did not affect anyone else's way of Smithing, and now I have to yawn and take much longer to get it to 100 because of the nerf.

As for the crossbow ... do you kill creatures quickly? I doubt you one shot anything. And yes, crossbows are supposed to be more powerful than long or short bows. Look it up. With mechanical gears, one gets more torque and power behind the shot than a mortal can do, and it pierces armor (even thick armor) with ease. So having it stronger than a daedric bow makes sense. And using different perks will also affect damage. So me using a crossbow as just a way to get in some ranged shots but no other Bow perks is different than you using one with all perks. Why should *I* get nerfed because you or someone else doesn't like it? I play just fine.

I never said the Crossbow is one shotting anything, I said some people like to walk around one shotting things, bad reading comprehension on your part there.

As for the Dragonbone bow vs the Crossbow. The Crossbow shoots considerably faster and has a built in stagger so yeah it is better, and that is comparing the worst Crossbow with the best bow.

If bows range from 1 (long bow) to 10 (dragonbone bow) depending on material then Crossbows start at 11 and go to 14. The scaling just isn't there and there are no Crossbows that are suitable for a low level character that doesn't want to breeze through everything.

Again, I have no problem with people who want Crossbows that are strong as it doesn't effect me what people do in their games. What does effect me however is that there are NO low end Crossbows on the game.

I could use that freedom argument you like to throw around too often but then I would be posting fallacies as you often do.

But there are, all you have to do is not upgrade it through smithing and an upgraded orcish bow would be better.
You said not everyone wants to one-shot everything and that is exactly what will happen if you keep your weapon relatively weak.

The crossbow does not shoot faster and doesnt do anything special that a perked up ranger cannot do.
It has specific downsides in combat such as the reload making you vulnerable for a little while.

The 'overpowered' argument is complete baloney, if such a thing even existed, and as someone who really dislikes it that every single time around there are people clamouring that everything should be nerfed until it is bland and everything is exactly the same, I do not concede that it does.

You have a choice in this game and you can make your weapon as powerful or keep it as weak as you want.
An enhanced dwarven crossbow does 21 base damage and the enhancement only means that it functions in exactly the same way as every range weapon does for someone who has the relevant perk.
My Auriel's bow does 100 base damage and I have the perks for fast reloading and staggering. And that one is not even 'overpowered'. Its a nicely tricked out bow that cant one-shot any medium enemy.

Think of Crossbow as the slow, heavy hitting Two Handers and the Bows as the quicker One Handers, in that case. Do you also complain that two-handers have too much damage? By that logic, there are no Two Handers that are suitable for a low level character that doesn't want to breeze through everything...

Have you actually tried using a Crossbow at the lower levels? If you're "breezing through everything" then your difficulty is too low and that's nobody's fault but yours. After the initial crossbow shot, you're left wide open for an attack, and at a low level a power attack WILL one shot you on Master difficulty, so don't give me that excuse, it most certainly doesn't let you "breeze through everything." Even on Expert or Adept, unless you're wearing Heavy Armor (and even then, considering you're at a low level) a power attack from an enemy during that open window where you're defenseless, you will take CONSIDERABLE damage from any respectable enemy.

Sure all you need to do is not pick up archery perks, not upgrade/enchant the thing, don't pop fortify archery potions, and don't poison the stupid thing and THERE you go non-op crossbow.
If you don't like it don't use it. Beyond completely broken game mechanics (which this ISN'T) there really is no need to "balance" the game. An example of a broken game mechanic is the Ogma Infinitum glitch because it allows you to completely side step content. This is just a maybe "over-powered" early weapon but even that is debatable considering its lack of range and the fact that your really need some serious archery perks to allow this weapon to shine (which I think is completely fair).

Do you even read what you're posting before you hit add reply? You're just posting rubbish now to try and forge a failing argument. Your solution for me wanting a low end Crossbow is to upgrade an Orcish bow? How is this even relevant? The weakest Crossbow is better than the best bow.


The only way it doesn't shoot faster is if the bow shoots before an arrow is fully nocked in which case it deals less damage and can't stagger.


Again just because you don't understand the concept of balance or how it impacts gameplay doesn't make it 'baloney'. And again calling it such does not refute it. Finally this point is a false dichotomy.


The weakest Crossbow unupgraded is in no way weak at level 10.

I wont bother replying to you anymore as you do nothing but post logically invalid arguments.

The problem would be that without everything you said the weakest crossbow is 2 times stronger than an orcish bow you can buy at level 10 and the same dmg as the best Dragonbone bow that you can find later in game or smith with 100 smithing + perks. Furthermore you get a better crossbow just by playing that get 50% armor resist and 50% stagger and elemental bolts. If you play as an archer you will perk the archery tree and get the 50% stagger perk that will make the crossbow into a dual destruction "I win" stagger button.

Fine dont reply, I was going to do you the same courtesy.
But since your so fond of 'logical fallacies' I thought I could point out that your argument on 'balance' displays a rather big whopper of one.
Its like youve never played a TES game before, because this choice is an integral part of them.
Where other games box you in and provide arbitrary limitations and hardcaps so that the designers can run you through their maze like a good little labrat, in a TES game traditionally youre allowed to tinker with the mechanics to create a gameplay experience you enjoy the most.
This has been the case since Arena, it is a basic tenet of TES.
Doesnt matter if we are talking about Daggerfall character creation, Morrowind alchemy, Oblivion spell stacking or whatever, the fact is that it is the norm.

So to clamour out for this supposed 'balance' should in itself be regarded as a logical fallacy, being that its not very TES-like to impose these arbitrary restrictions on the game.

Furthermore, why on Nirn would you go to the Dawnguard castle for a crossbow at level 10 if you dont enjoy the bonuses that brings?
Why not wait a bit then until the world is more appropriate levelled to the content for your liking?

But I think this is not about what you like or not, its about you imposing what you think the game should be on everyone else.
That just grinds my gears.

Take all this wonderful freedom and create a playstyle for yourself.
Do not clamour to have everyone elses freedom removed, especially since the game already gives you the means to play as you want to.

Well Merari I don`t think having a greater variety of crossbows or having them with bigger difference per damage per version would kill anyone. That would actually encourage getting better versions and would feel like advancing than just getting the same bow only with different materials.

Crossbows are surly a lot better than all the trash you can find at low level but there is no problem with it being op, after all you can be op with just a fork in this game

Sure bows have less damage however (perkless) bows has a significantly faster reload time, the option to shoot a little early if the enemie is too close, as well as a much longer range.
Also do you honestly think that people will be happy buying a dlc when one of its featured weapons is weaker than a regular vanilla weapon? Do you honestly think that is acceptable? People want to play with new content. If they offer a new weapon that is questionably weaker than ingame vanilla content people would outright refuse to buy dlc

An Iron Greatsword is also 1 damage higher than a Dragonbone Sword, does that make them OP? Also, having the stagger perk with crossbows doesn't make it a 100% chance. It makes it stagger almost always, but I can guarentee that it isn't 100% unless they changed it since the beta.

Crossbows might be stronger on the damage side, but they have disadvantages that come with that, hence the higher damage. There's also something called roleplay. Also, the "low end crossbow" argument is invalid because Dawnguard is a DLC that caters to high level characters. Sure, you can start it at level 1 by going directly to the Fort, and you get quest updates pointing you to the Dawnguard as low as level 10, but Todd Howard/Matt Carafano (and GameInformer) said it themselves that the DLC caters to high level characters around 20, 30, 40, and higher. Therefore, there is no point in making low end crossbows. There are two crossbow types, and it's been that way since Morrowind. I'm not saying more crossbows would be a bad thing, but there are mods for that, and considering low end crossbows would be pointless considering they're DLC-exclusive and faction exclusive, and as I said the DLC caters to higher levels, there would be no point.

Well sure it has lower range but not that small and if you are sneaked its hitting hard and hard to find plus it has a stagger 50% so it slows your enemies down from time to time. Why wouldn't the crossbow be a leveled item like other guild items so if your low level you get a lower version than if you were higher level. This would apply to bought or smithed weapons so if your higher level than when you got the crossbow the first time you just buy or make a new one and its higher level dmg now.


Well it might be high level oriented but if you can get it as low as level 1 then it just wrong in a way. Furthermore the Iron GreatSword might be 1 dmg higher but you can have 2 one-handed Dragonbone Swords at the same time so its lower actually and one handed swords are lighter so they can power swing more (if it mattered 1 stamina exploit)

Thank you!

BTW I did try to do DG at lvl 10 with no shouts but halfway decent gear ... its HARD and near impossible on master. I left the quest-line and leveled up to around 20 got a few shouts and it's still hard but not as hard as it was previously. DG is in no way meant to be done at level 10 (though you do have the option I don't recommend it)

So if you think a crossbow is OP for a level 10 IT IS! but the same can be said for Daedric or Dragonbone for the same level 10 char.

Anyway I've said all I can and I am done with this topic.

You can also get a Bound Bow (which is high level oriented) at level 1 and at level 2 you can get the Mystic Binding perk. I've had a Khajiit character at level 2 that had a Bound Bow that showed 60 damage on the inventory screen, compared to his 19 damage (not sure how much damage the bolts were at that level but I can find it if you'd like) Crossbow. You can accomplish that with no exploits whatsoever, too. I still don't see your point?

Crossbows really aren't OP at all, I believe they're quite balanced well with normal Bows and there's good reason to use both of them. If the Crossbow appeals more to you, then you can go ahead and use it, but I use both of them depending on what I'm roleplaying. Also, some of my character don't even use sneak, such as my pure warrior characters. Have you used crossbows (or bows for that matter) without sneak on Master difficulty?

Might I add, I am VERY much against the idea of leveled items, I hate that they kept some items leveled in Skyrim, it drives me crazy.

This isn't the same situation and it's pretty weak on your part to compare a two hander to a one hander which swings about 3 times faster. They arn't even in the same skill catagory.


A similar situation would be Bethesda adding flail weapons to the one handed catagory in the next DLC. There is only one variant, you get it at level 10, it has 30 base damage and swings as fast as a sword.