In reality, there also aren't dragons and you can't shoot fireballs out of your hands and you can't go days without eating anything and you can't carry a million arrows without being hindered in the slightest. Need I go on?

The reload speed is fine where it is, how much slower do you propose the crossbow become? Any slower and people would never use it, even for RP purposes it would become a nuisance to use over a bow. At most adding anything more than a second for reloading would be ridiculous for game mechanics. Yes, the reload speed becomes faster with the perk, but so do bows. Besides, who says TES crossbows have to behave exactly the same way that real life crossbows behave? Crossbows are weapons of Dwemer origin after all, not human made.

Edit: Crossbows already have disadvantages as it stands. I play on Master difficulty, and after your initial shot, you're forced to reload which hinders your movement by a decent amount, which leaves me open for an enemy to power attack and one shot my character, something that I can easily avoid when using a bow.

That's an ignorant statement to make.

The "fantasy storyline means anything can happen" arguement only applies to things that aren't covered by standard laws of physics. The Crossbow is a machine and machines are bound by laws of physics. If it is a "magic crossbow" then it seems nobody at bethesda mentioned it to me.

I play on master diffuculty and, besides range, I cannot think of a reason NOT you use a crossbow over a regular bow. Range isn't particularly important unless you are outside fighting a dragon or something. Most battles in Skyrim take place in dungeons at close range. The reload time for a crossbow and a Daedric bow are almost the same.

Except that reloading a crossbow leaves your defenses wide open, where as you can choose when to knock and shoot your bow and avoid attacks much better with a bow. Also, there's a little thing called roleplaying, which some of us do quite often in roleplaying games, believe it or not.

I'm not trying to be an [censored] here, but I think those reasons alone are why people will use bows over crossbows. There's also the drawback that only the Dawnguard side can truely put crossbows to use, as the Volkihar side can't keep a good stock on crossbow bolts. I personally use bows and crossbows on different archetypes for different reasons, and even if a crossbow had 100 more damage than a bow, I'd still use a bow if my character favored one.

Still, from what I can tell, your problem is with crossbows being as viable to use as bows. This thread is about crossbows being overpowered, but they seem well balanced with bows to me, which was Bethesda's intent. So what exactly is the actual problem?

I think they are better than bows and unrealistic in their reload time which is or should not be Bethesda's intent. They get + 50% to stagger chance which stacks with perks and -50% to opponents armor. If you know anything about crossbows and war history you know that heavy crossbows (obviously the type featured in Dawnguard) require a very large amount of force to ready. They use 100 pounds of pressure; or more. They cannot possibly be readied by hand without the aid of a crank. Many are readied by standing on them and pulling the string back. This is not a quick, one handed action. The reload time of Dawnguard crossbows would make them Light Crossbows which are good for hunting game and killing people who aren't wearing armor. I think they just need to increase the reload time. A crossbow is a 1, maybe two shot weapon and then you need to switch to melee. Honestly all they need to do is to double the reload time and make it so being hit restarts it. That way stealth assassins can still use it no problem and warriors will use it as intended. First strike; then switch to sword and board.

In that case, what you're basically saying is that crossbows in-game are simply unrealistic and inaccurate when compared to RL crossbows, rather than the current ones being overpowered. If that's what you're getting at, then I respect that. However, I don't find the current in-game crossbows to be anywhere close to overpowered, unless you make them that way by looping different crafting skills.

How crossbow mechanics should have been implemented and whether or not the current ones in-game are overpowered or not are two different topics of discussion, which is why I think alot of people here are arguing, simply because they're arguing about different things entirely.

Unrealistic + inaccurate = overpowered.

I don't understand how you aren't getting this. If there was a new sword that came out which did two handed sword damage with two handed sword range but was a one handed sword wouldn't that be unrealistic and inaccurate as well as overpowered? Please don't answer that. Just move on and let someone else talk.

to answer Adsin15... (off-topic)

The Ebony Blade is wielded in two hands, but is considered a one-handed sword rather than a greatsword. This means that it gets the benefits of a generic two-handed weapon, such as using and training the Two-handed skill, but also benefits from abilities that apply explicitly to one-handed swords, such as perk and enchantment damage boosts, power attack and decapitation maneuvers through the one-handed perk tree, and bonus critical chances?. Its damage, weight, weapon reach, sound files, impact force, and stamina usage are all configured to One-handed skill values. - UESP

Also this is a FANTASY GAME! So why would I want Realistic & Accurate to RL, If i'd want that i'd go and do RL stuff... We all get RL everyday so why would I want it in a FANTASY GAME!

I understand what you're trying to get at, but Bethesda quite obviously wanted it to be this way. They even lowered bow damage in preperation for crossbows, because they wanted crossbow damage to be a bit higher than bow damage. Just because crossbows in-game are not 100% accurate to real life crossbows does not make them overpowered though.

Your example of one-handed and two-handed swords isn't comparable because both one-handed and two-handed swords are already in the game so if they released another one-handed sword we'd just compare them to the existing swords. However, we haven't had crossbows in TES since Morrowind, so there's not much to compare them to.

I understand your argument about wanting crossbows to be realistic akin to the real world crossbows, but even if they're kept the way they are now, they're NOT overpowered in-game. So your logic there is a bit flawed. If there were pre-existing crossbows in Skyrim that worked like real world ones, and then they released the ones we currently have, then those can be seen as "overpowered" in comparison to the previous crossbows. However, when comparing crossbows to bows, both are fairly balanced.

You're talking about an entirely different thing, which is realism, not balance. Just to be clear, I'm not disagreeing with you that the crossbows in Dawnguard are true to real life crossbows, because they obviously aren't. I'm simply disagreeing with you that crossbows are overpowered.

Virtuosus, you don't understand how damage works in this game. A bow's base damage isn't simply added onto arrow damage. It's multiplied by several variables such as your archery level and overdraw perks. The arrow damage then gets added on top, which is why arrow damage isn't very significant.

As an example, at 100 archery with max overdraw, a 5 point difference in base damage will result in a 15 total damage difference.

Furthermore, you claim that crossbow reloading leaves the player defenseless. How is that any different from being defenseless while you're nocking + drawing a bow? You can run at full speed while reloading the crossbow.

No, you can't.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=B6cK-kLSebM#t=171s

I know how damage works in this game. Sneak attacking would make the damage difference a bit larger as well, as would Fortify Archery enchantments. I still don't see how such a small amount of damage can be considered overpowered? Crossbow maximum damage can get higher than a bow, so what? They also take longer to reload, and as I said, they have their drawbacks.

You can NOT "run at full speed while reloading the crossbow." Have you ever tried using the crossbow at all, or are you just basing your assumptions off what other people say?

Besides, there's another difference between knocking an arrow and reloading a crossbow. You can choose to knock an arrow whenever you want, but the game forces you to reload your crossbow immediately after taking a shot. The only way to avoid it is to spam the X button as soon as your shot goes off to sheathe your crossbow, and even that isn't foolproof as it doesn't always work. If you don't use this trick to immediately put away your crossbow after a shot, you're forced into the reloading animation, where you're left wide open for attacks from enemies, which can mean immediate death depending on how squishy you are at high difficulties. The worst part is, when you're reloading, your movement speed is decreased by a large amount, meaning you cannot dodge incoming attacks while reloading unless you're perked. (Much like the bow when knocking an arrow, except reloading your crossbow is forced.) Also, if you knock an arrow with your bow you can simply press X to put the arrow away, but if you're reloading a crossbow, pressing X doesn't cancel the reload animation, you just continue to do it.

I wonder how much some of you have actually used the crossbow for, honestly. I use both the bow and crossbow for different character archetypes, and my Thief character actually uses both for different situations, and both have advantages and disadvantages and I'd say they're quite balanced well and nowhere near "overpowered." If anything, the fault lies at the game being too easy, and crafting skills are to blame because they are simply overpowered, not crossbows.

Are you guys saying that you move as slowly reloading a crossbow as you do when moving with a drawn bow? If so, then I owe everyone (and BGS) an apology. As I said, I'm playing on a neighbor's xbox. He has a level 41 sneak archer, so obviously he has the ranger perk. It never dawned on me that this perk would be useless for crossbows if indeed you could run at full speed while reloading.

In that case that makes crossbows in the early game much, much less desirable. Still OP as hell for sneak archers though, but sneak archers are already stupidly OP so who cares.

Sorry everyone.

Yes, you move extremely slowly while reloading the crossbow unless you have the appropriate perk. And indeed, sneak attacks are pretty ridiculous.

EVERYTHING in the game can be OP...that is the point of enchanting and smithing...to make the toughest stuff to fight with. Otherwise dont use things that you dont agree with. The whole game shouldnt bend to YOUR will even though everyone else finds the weapon to be fine

Again with the overpowered nonsense.
If you dont like a weapon, pick another.
No-one is forcing you to use these things.

Besides, with smithing + enchanting you can make any weapon be as powerful as you want.
Its a choice, but people dont seem to get that and like to pretend its forced upon them.

I never noticed crossbows being this or that, because I prefer regular bows.
And Im quite happy with Auriel's bow.

HEY VERYONE! I just created a sneak thief assassin Dunmer, and GUESS WHAT, I'm using bows because crossbows would make NO SENSE with this character, I know -mind blowing-.

I've not had much time to use the crossbows because I've been concentrating on my vampire lord, but I did have a bit of a play when I first encountered one. With a regular bow I've become really quite good at sniping the bandits at Valtheim Tower from obscene distances, even on the 360 without .ini tweaks. I can't get close to doing that with a crossbow.

Without ranger crossbows are almost useless head on. And this is from an almost pure archer.

Yeay! Another voice of reason!

Imagine that. Frankly this whole discussion is getting stale. IMHO, since I am playing on master as well as having 100 archery, with associated perks - don't have Ranger though, the friggin' crossbows are no better than any other weapon in the game. I still use my bows more. Nowhere near OP - IF they were OP, I think I'd be using them.

People have to get over themselves and realize this is a game meant for enjoyment. You wanna' play with reality, join the armed forces and see how tough reality can be. You'll welcome the bent rules in a fantasy game. IT IS A GAME - NOT REALTY. And of course, your mileage will vary....

Lol, you are going to be playing on PC, which can easily fix this 'problem', and yet you still come on here and complain.

Here's a tip: if you want a challenge, download Skyrim Redone when the DLC hits, and keep your game on master. I'm sure he will tweak the crossbows, and he already has made combat much, much harder by adjusting the AI. Get Mighty Dragons while you are at it as well.

I'd also just not use those ridiculus slowing poisons you have listed in your archer build either.

No they're not.

They are about right. They are slower and noisier than bows. A light armored assassin build would rely more on a bow for stealth.

A typical build of say a Bosmer, Khajiit, Argonian etc would all be more suited to a bow due to the stealth bonus. Magic user type builds such as an Altmer or a Dunmer would steer more to throwing ice spike for ranged attacks rather than waste build points on archery.

Crossbows are designed I'm guessing more for pure melee style builds such as those that are the typical Nord or Imperial design as they get no racial bonus for archery. Its a shame they don't make an ebony crossbow as an upgrade of the steel design.

I have a Nord as my main who is ultimate in heavy armor and melee but I've barely raised in archery or magic. I find a crossbow is great for him as it allows a ranged attack. Once I've fired off my first couple of bolts I find myself having to swap to melee as they are usually upon me. I have a light armoued Khajiit character who can hide in the shadows undetected whilst taking out targets. If he was to use a crossbow, i'm guessing he'll get heard so it would make sense to carry one.

I`m on PC so I didn't play DawnGuard but if you get the quest at level 10 then your mostly on an orcish bow that does 10 dmg and orcish arrows that do 12 dmg for total of 22 dmg. The lowest crossbow you get does 19 dmg and has steel bolts that do 10 dmg for 29 dmg total. The total difference is small only 7 dmg but difference in base is nearly 100% more for the crossbow and crossbow can have additional 10 elemental dmg on the bolt.

Now any improvement will have bigger effects for the weapon with bigger base. You can get the steel perk in smithing without even having to smith anything while orcish requires 2 more perks an high level, while elven only needs 1 perk more than steel but it goes the light Armour route so you will loose on deadric but now when we have dragonbone weapons this isn't a problem.

So you now have a crossbow that is 2 times stronger than your orcish bow, gets more dmg with perks and skill in archery, can be smithed with double benefit and has enchanted bolts without actually enchanting it and still can have enchantments on it. Furthermore you can get the upgraded steel crossbow that has additional 50% armor piercing that is quite good on dungeon bosses and enemies that actually have some decent armour and any bow dmg pieces will benefit crossbow more as it is a percentage increase.

Now you can kill things preety easily without stealth but if you stealth kill your dmg difference between bow and crossbow can get from 2 to 3 times bigger if you have the sneak perk.

A deadric or dragonbone bow with full smithing perks is probably the same as a extended dwarwen crossbow with smithing perk but that is only when you got smiting maxed and get those bows, for a level 10 this is actually quite a difference between the normal bows he can get and a crossbow he gets and can upgrade very easily.

This ...i really don't understand such attitude,even if i've yet to play dawnguard if i would find something that i don't like i will simply avoid it