Am I the only one who finds the use of Elder Scrolls so far a bit overly generous? I'm a little worried the resulting plot mechanic might end up becoming a bit.. well, paper thin.

You see, Elder Scrolls are quite literally the biggest deus ex machina you'll find in all Tamrielic lore. One was used in Oblivion, which I thought was odd since it was only used to relatively minor effect. Skyrim features one too, but to much greater and interesting effect.

The fact that gamesas has pointed out straight from this first Dawnguard trailer that this DLC will feature an Elder Scroll *probably* vouches for it being a major plot element. So overuse & deus ex machina are the keywords here.

Are you tired? Can't concentrate? Having trouble sleeping over that:

• Nasty dragon?
  
• Depressed Gray Fox?
  
• Annoying fan?
  
• Leaky roof?
  
• Indigestion?

Fear not, we have the perfect solution for you. Take.. an Elder Scroll!

~ Elder Scrolls, the Freshmaker!

I forgot we were going to block out the sun without the help of divine power.

But I get where you're coming from. It may become a copout of actaully thinking up an original idea.

like i've been saying well before dawnguard was announced, we're using an elder scroll to time travel or bring something thru time to the current time...i think thats how vamp lords will fit in the story, they're future vamps. The crossbow is a future invention and neither has vamp lords or crossbows been seen anywhere in the past so yea we're breaking 88mph

great scott! thats heavy

They are still rarely used in TES stories. I don't think the expansion is any indication of what they would plan to do with them in other TES expansion/sequel plans.

It just happens to fit with the Vampire Lords plans so they can really happen if the player chooses that path.

Just imagine Tamriel in eternal night, how more profound that would be instead of just a story of "hey! we vampires want to take over! but there is still sunlight each day! grrrr! pesky sunlight! oh well we'll rule from indoors! so it's at least a 50% victory"

If they play their cards right, the Vampire Lords questline could be the most awesome and interesting questline ever. You rarely see a vampire story in any medium where the vampires win and block out the sun indefinitely. It would be the utopia and biggest victory for vampire lores and something very unexplored in any medium, especially in a scenario taking place in a fantastic interactive and open universe like The Elder Scrolls.

But what he's saying is "Hey so an obvious problem with vampires is the sun.. here's the Bethesda idea guys.. 'uhh ummm no uh no that won't work uhr... wait guys I've got it! AN ELDERSCROLL!" Instead of something original.

A copy/paste 'creativity machine'.. if you will.

We saw crossbows in Morrowind. 3rd Era, remember? If anything, we'd be travelling into the past.

But yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about it either. I kinda liked the idea of Elder Scrolls being these all-powerful objects shrouded in mystery, that no one could read and no one knew how to use. Seeing them twice in one game... I guess we'll have to wait and see.

You mean the actual titular item finally can be found in the game and have a real usage?

I wouldn't call that overused...

Time travel isn't exactly unheard of in Elder Scrolls lore but I can understand the concern, mostly I'm glad that this DLC has fantastical elements, for all it's mountains and dragons the main game can feel a bit too "earthy".

Ok, then let me ask you this. If they're using an Elder Scroll anyway, why not just make ALL vampires invulnerable to sunlight? That's the problem with deus ex machina, they can be applied to anything to any effect.

Being creative with something like blocking the sun without an E.S. would risk contradicting the lore and ending up with a less impressive story.


At least E.S. doesn't contradict the lore, and has far greater influence than something that their enemies can just flip back around with just valiant effort and some easy to learn ritual.

Also considering E.S. are beyond predictability, it's just as possible that more than 1 could be found during Skyrim.

Nothing they do will satisfy people like you, why don't you write the DLC storyline. I think dawnguard looks brilliant from the trailer, delving into the uses of elder scrolls is always interesting.

Would you prefer a storyline like "oh no the vampires have started to block out the sun, get to the top of location A and press the button to stop them", revolving the new questline around the mysterious powerful items the game is named after is far more interesting to me. Love to hear your ideas though...

Even if that were the case, you could say vampires hate sunlight in general, not just because of the damage, but also the brightness it brings itself.
You could also say vampire adore the darkness and make the world of darkness would make the world a better place for them visually.

Also I think having an E.S. make it night always would be much easier than making it specifically make all vampires invulnerable to sunlights effects on them.

ha well those.crafty dwemer were ahead of their time, maybe because they found a way to read an elder scroll using the lexicon and crystals

i think its either going to be time travel or a lost place/person to bring vamp lords into the game...maybe the tomb of a vamp lord was unearthed and he has the power to turn regular vamps into lords

Obviously, an Elder Scroll contains ONE POINT TWENTY-ONE JYGGALAGS!

Up until Oblivion the Scrolls existed in words only, and were basically prophetic parchments, they were developed nicely into Objects of considerable power and unknown origin, but unlike most RPGS these items weren't fabled god artifacts that everyone seeks nor was the story DIRECTLY based around them (insert uber god item lost centuries before reclaimed by hero to be used) you know the cliched stories told immemorial.


even Oblivion's pitch on them wills still minuet tasteful, sparce yes but light and sweet. but now with the Direct use of it in Skyrim and again in Dawnguard I fear thats just a tad too common, I'm hoping the route is not taken where they become the centralized story in future titles given their Importance and intrigue.

Isn't it is contextually impossible for a deus ex machina to contradict the lore? Elder Scrolls are lore. It's a neat little triangle. Perhaps not everything that happens should have to have a base in lore. A dwemer machine that fires a gigantic ball of tar into the sun should be just as curious, if not entirely silly.

GO Play Morrowind crossbows existed in that game

That I can get behind. Can't take out the human factor.


Why would one be easier over the other? There are other countries on Tamriel than Skyrim. There are other continents on Nirnthan Tamriel. Just changing all the vampires? Considering we're talking about Elder Scrolls, neither option seems more implausible to me.

It's a moot point either way. The way I see it, the problem here is that I have identified Elder Scrolls as being deus ex machina. There aren't a lot of writers that can get away with something like that, but I'll give them the benefit of the doubt until I've actually seen the DLC for myself.

Until that happens, someone needs to prove to me that they are indeed not deus ex machina.

There is a lot of Skyrim in Skrim. There is comparably little Elder Scrolls in the Elder Scrolls.

Lore has long been they are powerful, but mysterious. My character has one, and has used it to save the world -woot-woot- but still understands it so little he goes blind from reading it.

An original idea is tricky. You either have to draw on lore (Dwenmer invention, Deadra Lord being bad, Elder Scroll magic) or contrdict lore (Mr. Burns builds a giant sun blocking.....)

I think that using the titular Elder Scrolls is not the worst idea ever. Even by using them now 3 whole times, they are still very mysterious.

Perhaps there is a better way of doing that would still fit in the Elder Scrolls universe. I would love to hear a suggestion. But, wouldn't Dwenmer inventions of super power litteraly be deus ex machina and was already done. So too would the Deadra Lord invasion (Oblivion, new online game)

What better idea would you suggest?

Crossbows were in Morrowind, 200 years before skyrim took place. Plus there were steel crossbows so obviously current races can use them. Add in the fact that skyrim is 200 years after that & it would be slly to assume they don't have them at that time.

No. Crossbows were in Morrowind. I really don't think we'll time travel other then maybe another aspect of seeing back in time but not actually going there.

Not 500 years. Skyrim only takes place 200 years after Oblivion and Morrowind wasn't that big of a time jump.

Oh my mistake, I'll have it fixed thanks.

Normally, I would agree with you, but blocking out the sun does seem like a really cool idea, and it would be the first time in Skyrim where it feels like the player character has some impact on the world.

Morrowind took place 6 years before oblivion