-By applying that kind of logic killing off BoS is quite acceptable as they will eventually dwindle into oblivin because of their xenophobic ways of not accepting newcomers. . Thanks.

Not accepting new comers? They accepted me pretty well. And they allied with the NCR.

Just because they dont accept new comers dosnt mean they will die out. They survive through their children

-They accepted you because you were doing them heavy handed favors well outside the scope of the abilities of most anyone else. Any faction would love to have a superman esque legend person. And as you find out through the conversations with Vic, and others inside the bunker, BoS has pretty much reached the dead end of biological viability. There are hardly any Nevada BoS left. Especially after Helios.

Do you mean Victor? I never heard him say that. Can you tell me exactly who says that hte bloodline is going out

Here is my take on House.

Is he ruthless, Yes, but no more so than the other factions. The only real difference is he doesn't try to hide that fact. I don't like his choice of people he put in charge of the strip, but he needed a fighting force or the NCR or legion would have rolled right over him and the mojave.

I do believe that he would build ships to go colonize other planets and I believe so because unlike the other factions he is guided by science and calculations and even though he is so set on restoring vegas to its old world charm he has to know that world is no longer viable in resources. His power plants will run out of fuel, and metal will eventually be used up even with some sort of super recycling program. Would it happen in the time frame House tells the courier I highly doubt it, but it would happen none the less.


And considering that if you finish House's storyline to the end then you are essentially his second in comand and the Mojave would also rest in your hands rather than just House's and I doubt he would try and stop any plans the courier puts into motion so long as it doesn't hinder House's overall plan.

I believe House is neither good nor evil, but an old man whom lost some of his morality and subtly along the way.

House isn't "evil", just like the NCR isn't "evil", and hold onto your seats the Legion isn't "evil".

The NCR at face value looks to be the "good guys" in the story. It looks like they're fighting to keep the people of New Vegas from the horrors of the Legion. However, really they're only interested in the economic value of New Vegas. Their evil lies in their corruption and the fact that they're nothing more than a model of the pre-war government that failed before. They don't care about the people of New Vegas. It even says in one of the loading screens "The NCR doesn't like to play the role of peacekeeper, any crime across the Mojave will be punished by death."

House is no better than the NCR. His securitrons make the streets of New Vegas cold, but eventually brings law to them. No different form what the Legion was planning on doing ot it. They both rule Vegas with an iron fist and a punish crime with slavery and death.

Ok stop stop stop I couldn't read this thread anymore without jumping in.

A. NCR are the good guys
Even if the NCR is uneffective and somewhat corrupt they bring two things for the Mojave to a greater extent than any other faction.
-Freedom
-Commerce

The NCR is a democracy, they only put towns like Primm under Martial Law while they still have larger problems (like the Legion in Nevada). Besides that at least the NCR HAS rules! If you do something wrong in NCR terrority at least there was a written law against it and it's probably rational that you die. Remember this the whole game is a War Zone not 1950 on Main St. they don't have the time or resources to build a judical system when there are so many other problems. If the only natural rights Mojave Citizens don't get is the 4th and 5th admendment then so be it, I highly doubt the NCR would kill someone because they have a different political philosphy or form a protest. Do you think House or the Legion give a damn about your rights at all? HELL NO. Comparitly the NCR are saint's to House's robots and the Legion's rule.

As for commerce if the NCR gains control of the Mojave they now have one of the most advanced major cities on earth under there hand. From the plant vault they can now feed the whole republic PLUS annexed regions and they could finish the railroad to allow fast travel between California and Southern Nevada. Opposed to Caser/ Legate killing off most the population/enslaving them, or House letting most of the waste fall into anarchy.

B. House is closer to evil than good and the Legion are the definition of evil if there was one.
When was the last time House gave a rat's ass about your human rights? About a trail? About your right of free movement? etc. House doesn't give a damn, the man is literally the definition of a despot. I mean the only difference between House and Casear is that House has less extreme methods. At the end of the day if House controls Vegas, he basically treats you as property not as a human. I'm not saying that some things weren't needed like clearing out the strip of tribes but the man isn't there for anyone's best interest but his own. I'm not saying that's a bad way to live your life, but for the Mojave at large it's not as good. And when looking at House vs. Caesar what's the real difference? Both are basically aiming for their "Rome". House's is on a different planet, and Caeser's is New Vegas.

And speaking of the Legion, if I was going to define evil, I would say totalitartianism. IS the Legion that? Yes? Ok then. I really don't care much when people say, "Well before the Legion it was a bunch of tribes [censored] and warring.....Great so now we have one giant totalitarian slaver army bent on basically ruining the spread of democracy and capitalism running across Arizona and New Mexico. Just because the Legion can secure it's terrority doesn't mean they're good in any way. Like Paine said (or some writter on the rights of man) you can have peace in a dungeon.

You know one thing though? I like Mr. House as a person and administator, I guess my largest problem is that he won't even create an institutional framework to protect the citizens. I'll admit House is probably the smartest character in F:NV but he doesn't see the good that can come from the NCR, he only sees them as a nuiscence if nothing more. But if House fails (which without the Courier he would of) then the NCR is the hedge against that. IF House fails in going to another planet (which I find it likely he will) then the NCR will still bring the chance democracy, free trade and civilization can return to the world.

Is there any evidence that the NCR drafts people? I got the impression that army was strictly voluntary.

Why does having a democracy, no matter how corrupt or inept, instantly make you the good guy?

That seems to be the only salvation for the NCR

"Derp, they may be corrupt and tax you without protecting you and not give a crap about anything except owning more land but at least you can vote!"

Yay.

I'm not a Legion supporter, but we cannot stand to make a fair and informed opinion of how they run their Homelands. However, Raul and the caravaner in The Fort mention how Arizona and New Mexico were hell before the Legion established it's firm and harsh system of law and order. It might be brutal, but it's there for a reason. It works.

The NCR are backstabbers, they even make you assassinate House purely because 'we don't trust him'. The ONLY reason the NCR are nice is because the Legion is on the oppposite side of the river. The NCR are plotting to steal the Strip and Vegas out from under House. The NCR has NO right to just roll over people that do no want their rule. The NCR keeps pulling that American 'we do it because it's our right' crap, and it will come back to bit them in the rear, and when it does, I wont be sad to see it happen. The NCR flaunts and preaches the word 'Democracy' but they are just as expansionist and totalitarianistic as Caesars Legion.

It does seem (especially since apparently raiders left NCR territory) they are not as inept at protecting what they own as you make it out. As it stands the NCR is not in control of any of the towns in the area. And the current conflict has put stress on protecting the areas that are theirs and building up forces at Hoover Dam.
People tend to forget that the Mojave isn't actually NCR territory and it's troubles aren't the standard in their actual territories.


Well let's be fair, they can't trust him (House). They don't really have a good idea of what he's doing, but they know he's planning something. The quest lacks a find/present evidence first option, but otherwise it's reasonably justified in wanting him out of the way.
Their expansionism will bite them in the rear, off course, but Democracy doesn't automatically mean play nice and/or leave everything be, technically the Mojave is just a collection of towns and tribes and the Strip was only rebuilt because of their arrival.

Mr. House has the best plan for the future of humanity of all the factions in the game.

He himself has vast encyclopedias of pre-war medical knowledge the likes of which even the followers couldn't imagine. He is a technological wizard - he created not only RobCo robots, but in the world of Fallout he's the Bill Gates of his time. He created the software that ran - and still runs- the world. He created a wet-wire uplink from a human brain into a mainframe.

He saved Las Vegas. He is the only reason there's anything still standing at all. If it wasn't for him, no one would even know Vegas ever existed. His idea is to turn Vegas back into a shining oasis in the desert and restore it back to the way it was before the war. He isn't trying to heavy-handed pillage, oppress and enslave people here. . . he merely uses his securitrons to keep order on the streets. To keep things safe and orderly for all. Hell, it's probably the only true "safe" city in the world. He knows this safety will draw people to Vegas in droves. Because he now has full control of the strip, he can use the profits he makes from it to fund his space travel plans.

What's the NCR's grand plan? To take over new territory. . .then what? The NCR people in the know even talk about how the NCR has gotten too big for it's own good and can barely support itself. How about the legion? They want to conquer and enslave. . . and then what? You see, the other factions have no vision, they're just greedily clawing away at whatever they can. Taking whatever they can get just to say it's theirs.

Mr House is far and away better than that.

True, but House would have no issues with the NCR if it's leaders werent coniving to steal Vegas from him. As I see it, House has a right to Vegas, he has done it alot of good, showing he knows how to prepare for the future. The ending even proves House is a technological genius further seeing as Oliver and the end slides say how House has gotten the dam 'beating in new ways'. The more salient issue is NCR isn't willing to share or play nice with other nations, they take what you have by force.

Facepalm. The NCR doesn't want to play with other nations? They've had a dipomat on the Strip for 4 years trying to contact House and talk about the future. What the hell do you expect them to do? Dipomacy has to work both ways.


The Legion enslaves you, House will tax, remove or kill you, and the NCR will TRY to protect you and let you vote. And you know what I love about Wastelanders and people on these forums? They act as if the NCR spending resources on trying to kill the Legion ISN'T protection. Are there raiders? Yes but why? Because you have an army of crazy slavers trying to kill everyone! God, there are priotories.


Both the NCR and Legion's main plan is to rebuild society. House has a "dream" to go to other planets but I doubt he will. Ask yourself this one question, if the courier wasn't there would House had upgraded his robots? If the answer is no (which it is) then why do you believe he's comptent enough to send man to space? And the NCR's goal of restoring: Technology, Trade, Commerce, Democracy, Electricity, Food (Plant Vault), Safety, etc is more realstic and do-able than House's lets colonize bulls-.


This is how the homeland works. If you're a male you join the army or die or you join svck then die. If your a female you breed, work then die. Just because Caeser united the tribes doesn't mean it's moral or better, so great now we have ONE massive unified [censored], pillaging society trying to enslave a whole region, as opposed to small tribes that could be easily broken.

Their main plan is to rebuild society? Oh wait, I have a copy right here. It goes like this. . .

1. Conquer what's left of America
2. ??
3. Profit.

In short, they have no plans. At all. Their only plans are to take over. That's it.
And I can see why you would doubt Mr. House. . . I mean he knows nothing at all about technology or the human anatomy. What a dunce this guy is.

What I find funny is that you think bringing civilization back to what's left of humanity is a small task. Not only that but of course the NCR/Legion would profit from more people with jobs, food, water, safety etc and as if that's a bad thing in the NCR's case. And yes Mr. House knows things about tech but can he effectively use it?

Las Vegas is still standing and he's a 300+ year old human with an army of nuclear powered robots that he controls with his thoughts.

What do you think?

Edit: And no where in there did I allude that bringing civilization back is easy. House's plan involves rebuilding the tech industry even more advanced than it was before the war. You don't just start with spaceships, you need basics first. Raw materials and such. You need an industry for all that, too. House talks about reviving the economy on his way to the stars.

What I find funny is the idea anyone except House can.

The NCR are, as a group, narcissists and idiots. They are deluded, believing themselves to be the sole torchbearers of humanity in a world of injustice. Meaning it's ok to steal [censored] cos it's owned by naughty people. They completely fail to protect anything except that closest to home (where, as always, the politicains need to be comfy) and their entire system runs, like most failed democracies, on the power of pull.
For god's sake the guy in charge of their most precious front is inept, he is literally going to throw all his men into a full on assault, not even because he thinks it will win, purely because he wants the glory. Killing your own men for glory, that's heightened civilization right there.

The Legion we know too little about but they appear to be glorified slavers with brutal laws. Effective in some ways but incredibly harmful to your populace.

Then there's House, the only truly capitalist supporting one, he constantly pushes the economy, svcking people in, making money and using said money to expand. A method which has been shown time and again to build empires. The world revolves around money, it is that simple, House knows it and he uses it. He wants an independent Vegas to secure money to progress humanity, that's all he cares about.

Which of these is the best? It's not even a choice, House is the only one with any credentials beyond land grabbing and mass murder and the only one with any prospects that have been shown to work. NCR want what failed before, Legion want what failed long before that. Both sides are fools.

:clap:

There were quite a few people left after the Scourge.....who do you think Ashur's first followers were? If they killed *everyone* his corpse would still be buried under the Mill.

Most of those raiders are secretly being backed by the Legion to destabilize NCR held areas so that the people have no faith in thier ability to protect them and refuse to help them rather than be killed by the Legion. Nipton, the Khans and Fiends, the Legion is using classic guerrilla warfare tactics against the NCR....and it's working quite well. The NCR's inability to provide basic security is costing them the support of the locals. One of the things I like about this game is how the "bad guys" are using sound tactics to screw the NCR hard. Oliver is completely clueless regarding what Caesar and Vulpes are doing to him...if not for the Courier the Legion would almost certainly have won by default.

Just because the current NCR leadership is ineffective doesn't mean the organization itself is, in every democracy you'll get inept officals look at Bush. But the wonderful thing about democracy is that it's self correcting, and that's something the Legion or House can't do. Besides that the NCR can't provide security ONLY because of the Legion, otherwise it's plainly stated they would of had the region long ago. And if the Legion could win is debateable, I've already started talking about that in Gen. Chat not going to bring it back up here.

Yes Oliver svcks, but that doesn't mean the NCR on a whole does.


The only private property House gives a damn about his. He's not a capitalist at this point, he's a despot. What's the difference? Well lets put it this way he literally claims he "owns" the strip just because he saved some of it. Like hell he does, so if I safe your house do I now own it? The only claim to rule House has is robot army and if he had a brutal army of humans he'd be on the Legion's level the only difference is he created them.

Who the hell else is trying to spread democracy? Equality? Free Trade (house isn't for that he's for his own empire and interest.) does any other faction believe ghouls are equal that they're people too? And why do you all keep saying that because they can't secure ALL of the Mojave they are automatically bad. What the hell they've destroyed the Khan, Vipers, Jackals from a where they used to be. The Mojave is a war zone, protecting the Colorado is more important than making sure a slum dweller gets a state subsided drink of water. And money is only a representation of wealth, House could have all the caps in the world and that still can't take you to the moon. Building a tourist trap doesn't automatically mean you can now colonize other planets. Why would you believe his bull that it would.

Here's my last comment . IF without the courier House couldn't even upgrade some robots why the hell do you thnk he'll be able to take humans to space in 50 years?

Just like in real life, people fear and reject what they don't understand.

Do you REALLY want to trump that card? Let's take a look at Primm. If you ask the NCR to protect it, "Sorry, it isn't NCR territory" Let's go back in time to Vault City, they were assaulting it with hired mercs to force them under it's protection. The NCR won't feed Freeside Locals, only NCR Squatters. Face it, NCR are just as 'despot' as House, only difference is House isn't shy about admitting what he does and does not want.



Quite frankly, seeing as democracies got us to where Fallout is, the last thing I'd ever want is to see another one emerge. Hell, even NCR isnt a democracy. IT'S A REPUBLIC. There is a difference, you do realize that right? Plus, the NCR, in case you aren't aware, are just as guilty about being 'for their own interests'.

Your right, money isn't a representation of wealth, independent resources are. And do you know who has those resources? Mr. House. Also, for the love of God, stop with the damned strawman arguement of 'going into space' He even says 100 years he could do that. That's a long ways down the road. Face it, that's your only arguement, you use it to try and strike doubt in others, but let me put it this way. Who bought RepConn before the War? Mr. House, Who would have a head start on knowledge of space exploration? Mr. House, Who's go the smarts and education for rebuilding humanity? Mr. House.


Considering Mr. House knew Benny took the chip from square one, that's a moot point, he'd just find another agent. That said, your 'if' is moot, seeing as the fact of the matter is The Courier DID come along.

I'll agree that they've been shown to not being willing to share. But truth be told, it always seemed to me that House was keeping the NCR there only because he didn't have the capabilities to keep them away and they were convenient against the Legion. Without the chip and the non-functional reactor his hold was limited and if the NCR was playing nice and allowed him to keep the Strip he would have driven them because they don't factor in his plans for the area except as a source of money.


Really? Because contrary to what you might think both the NCR and Legion made quite some head way in rebuilding, long before House did.
Disregarding their methods and views, Caesar has brought order to a violent and chaotic region.
The NCR were (seemingly) the first to create a working economic and military nation. Their citizens enjoy quite a few rights and it's a reasonably tolerant society (open to ghouls and mutants).

If it really is true that House is the only one who can bring back civilization, I'd say leave humanity to rot. If their only salvation is a cybernetic computer, than I don't really think humanity deserve it's chance.
It would be truly sad that without this single person and his promise of space travel humanity is completely worthless and doomed.


It's easy to tally only the bad sides of the opposing sides and the good sides of the one you support. It paints him in quite a good daylight, let's just forget about the land grabbing he is shown to do, the murders mass murder he commits and the fact that he is shown to care solely for his plan and not for actual people.
People seem to forget that House is just as much and sometimes even more about using the tools that they vilify the NCR and Legion for.


Actually they make it clear that they lack resources for more people and their first priority is their own citizens. And what's worse is that House is completely apathetic to plights of Freeside.
You're not using the word despot right. You might say that the NCR is only looking out for it's citizens and doesn't care for non-citizens, but that doesn't equate to them being despotic.


That's argument is based on a fallacy. A democratic power was in charge when the war happened, thus democracy is automatically a faulty system? There's three faulty assumptions in that.
1) The assumption that the sole responsibility of the war lies with the US government. This disregards the circumstances leading up to the war, the other involved party (communist China) and the shadow government (Enclave).
2) The assumption that all democracies are the same. Though there are certain qualifiers for a democracy there is not a single way to do it and pre-war America is shown to be a paranoid, controlling and deflecting society.
3) The assumption that it is the system of democracy that breeds the corruption. Do you truly think the powerful and wealthy people who seek to corrupt would not exist or be seeking to expand or keep their power if the NCR or a democracy didn't exist.

And really I only see Mr. House doing something about corruption when it conflicts with his own interest.


Well he had a robot tailing you from the start. Did he ever state he knew Benny was betraying him before he saw him shoot you?