Sarcasm's cute.
I don't think anyone's said that mass murder is always ok. It's not mass murder if it's a pre emptive strike in a war though.
Also, yeah the NCR can potentially ally with the BoS but like I said, they also declared war on them and tried to kill them all just because they wanted the land they were on. Yay for the good guys.

Like I said, not always the good answer, no way. But in this case? The BoS are consistently shown to be power grabbing bullies who will skin you alive for a power drill. House owns securitrons, matching sentrybots for power and far more versatile. He also has all the other tech, which while of less interest to them, the BoS would definitely want it.
I said it in my original post. If you were House, bearing in mind the laws of the lands (lack thereof) you have to pre empt any war. As he played the NCR off against the legion to protect Vegas so he knows that letting the BoS be means they will, ultimately, become powerful enough to attack. Hell, even if they don't they'll become cocky enough to, they'll soon forget their beating at Helios One and venture out and with the NCR gone their first target of interest is the threat of Vegas.
Anyone, with even a passing interest in military tactics, knows how big of a threat they are. Letting them run riot? Ridiculous, idiotic in the extreme, especially for someone otherwise so careful.
Of course, a diplomatic solution would be nice, indeed I think there should be one, difficult, as with the Kings, since House is quite set in his decisions (to be honest, his biggest flaw) but possible. It was, I believe, in the original draft but was dropped for whatever reason. Even if it were possible...given the BoS, given their history and their own tenets...I would be incredibly wary to trust them and House, being so clinical in his decisions, wouldn't.

Have you seen that mustache of his? Clearly screams "supervillian."

The slave status of those two is debatable (though Gomorra is horrible) and they aren't slave collars, they're just normal collars, probably meant to be smexy.

But that's not the point of wiping the Kings out. They're not aiding the NCR in a hostile take over, they're putting a stop to violence in Freeside specifically aimed at NCR citizens.
This isn't some Strip threatening thing, it feels like a lame excuse to drive all the rif-raf out of Freeside.

It also doesn't make sense for House to have no problems with the violence.
As long as their kicking NCR citizens to the curb he just loves 'em, but once you dial back on the violence they're just cannon fodder for his annexation. Yet his plan is to keep the people of the NCR on good terms, since they're the main source of income?

So is irony..
Or is it ironing, or even Jeremy Irons.. it's whichever one is done in a maids outfit.

On Topic: Don't forget that most / all fairies factions just tell you that the group they want gone is bad news..
That if left alone they would lead to muddy waters in the future.
Heckity, those same pixies factions like the BoS themselves if made into a colonel major faction.
Would justify their actions of mass murder if it got them what they wanted.

Want to know how BoS sees the ordinary man? What BoS really thinks of anyone not BoS?

Go back and examine the dialogue of the "outcasts" in FO3. Those are the "Real" BoS. They will murder, torture(operation anchorage) and Pillage (The Pitt) ad nauseam for tech. Weapons tech. They don't give a flying [censored] about the common man unless he has something they want. And then they kill him and take it. "Shouldn't you be banging rocks together or something local" ect... thats the attitude of BoS when they are on top. And I am supposed to feel sorry for them? Knowing for full well that if BoS had its full strenght in Vegas they would turn Vegas into another ruin like the pitt , pillage Houses tech, and then just leave the inhabitants to fend for themselves.

Sorry no. Killing off the entire BoS chapter is a pre-emtive strike that makes all the sense in the world. The "poor BoS" mentality here is misplaced and naive at best, and downright silly at worst. Because BoS wouldn't feel one ounce of remorse if they could get a hold of Houses tech and left Vegas as a smoldering ruin.

No faction cares about the common man, if i had to rank it from the main factions it goes

NCR
House
CL

But even then the NCR would happily step on any small man to get what they want. So dont go saying that they dont care about the common man, because no one does.

I agree that they don't care about common man, however some factions do care about humanity. They may have different ideas on how to proceed, but they still care. But I would place house as the most evil of these factions.

NCR, they care about humanity and believe democracy is the answer to it's current problems. They may be a bunch of cleptocratic landstealing thieves, but they do believe their solution is the answer to the problem.

CL, they also care, however in their views humanity needs to return to it's roots in order to survive. So they don't use advanced technology or advanced medication. The result being that the Legion can grow whatever it needs. So they don't suffer from stimpacks running out.

BOS, they don't think technology should be used by ordinary men either, not because it forces people to return to their roots, but simply because they consider it too dangerous. You might want to keep some tech away from some people/countries, especially when it comes down to weapons.

Now for House, he doesn't really have a vision that helps all of mankind, getting into space, what good will that do? Filling Vault 21 with concrete, no doubt very useful. Not allowing the poor people of freeside to enter the strip because they have to have a minimal amount of caps. The way he want you to mass murder the entire BOS without even being at war with them. The strip doesn't even have much to offer to the BOS. The only advanced tech there is in the lucky 38, the Van Graffs and the securitrons, unless you'd seriously think the BOS is interested in the White Gloves' swimming pool and the neon lights on the casinos, the strip has nothing to offer and after the securitrons are gone, the people can patrol the strip just fine.

So I'm going to say the NCR, CL and BOS all feel they're doing some good, you may or may not agree with them, and they may not be able to go all the way due to corruption, manpower or technological shortages. Regardless, they still have a vision.

Your opinion is clearly anti-house pro BoS. I mean, the Brotherhood arent some protectors of humanity. They are warlords with high end tech. They cart away weapons that boost their arsenal.

As to House, his vision does help man, his plans to reignite the technological industries would be a big influence, if not the main reason, Humanity would go back on track. Look at it this way, what made man progress so far from sticks and huts? the introduction of new and efficient technology. Now, what better than a man who founded one of the most famouse technology companies before the war?

I honestly feel you're going about this from the wrong angle.

Statements like these are sad.

I remember bumping into teenagers in the BoS Bunker, and its safe to assume that there are children in the bunker as well.

Pre-emptive strike? My nation knows pre-emptive strikes well - nothing's better at eroding whatever moral high ground you may have than attacking people that haven't attacked you, and that may never attack you at all (if the bunker stays on lockdown).

"The greater good," is a phrase most often used to allow the annihilation of undesirables you believe to be in the way of "your plans for humanity."

Apparently it goes against one of House's 'principals' to allow people to make plans of their own - or to leave them alone - all buildings may be bulldozed to pave the way for his vision of progress.

You know, in broad strokes, I agree. but with House and Yes-Man both expressing this concern, I think the smarter move is to eliminate the threat before it attacks, I mean, you know if given the chance, the BoS would do the same. As I see it, sometimes we have to do morally questionable maneuvers to save something. Honestly, you know as well as I do, were the Brotherhood to go to war with New Vegas, they would not hesitate to kill Strip visitors.

I'm glad we agree - to a degree.

I don't think the BoS have an interest in going to war with the strip though. Maybe they want to incinerate the Van Graffs (meh) or loot the Lucky 38 (meh) but they don't seem to have a wish to control people - which is my main beef with House - he wants to control everyone in NV and bend them to his will.

The BoS wants things people have. House wants to control people's lives and lord over them. That and I find him personally disagreeable.

Well, you kind of say that like it's a bad thing. Apart from Sarah and Sheldon, who are understandably pissed they lost their Vault, most the people on The Strip are grateful for House, he may hold the reigns tighht, but like Swank says, Vegas is a wild horse. At least House would rather you deal with things in a good way that helps business, I don't trust the NCR to run a place like Vegas, and I don't want to see Vegas under the banner of the bull. I honestly wish it could be

NCR leaves Vegas and accepts House's Vegas as an independent state seperate of NCR rule, and Legion goes East licking their wounds.

Not really pro BOS, more pro independence, and in the case of Vegas that's a democratic Vegas, hopefully without any robot problems (also removing Yes Man). As for House, they'll have to decide what they'd do to him. I might suggest formatting the harddisks on his computer and either turn it over to Beth so they can use it to create more Fallout games, or installing windows and locking House out of all administrator accounts (maybe even Vista 64 with DEP :flame: )

The chip, it's something technical that everybody wants, so if I had to decide what to do with it I would make sure it gets destroyed. So no securitron upgrades and no securitron army.

Mr. House in my eyes is a good man with good intentions. He claims he does not with to abuse or use the people below him, and I believe him. Someone who has lived 260 years does not concern themselves with morality or pettiness, he's "above" us morally, he knows the best way to get the best outcome for New Vegas, even if you have to step on a few people to get there. I think space travel and colonization>>>>>>not being watched by robots.

- I fail to see the problem with my statement. Even if house leaves BoS alone they will never leave him alone. His weapon tech will be power deemed "unfit" to hold by anyone not BoS. And as we have seen in the Pitt, when BoS has the power to do something, they do it. Regardless of any consequense for civilians. If BoS is allowed to revitalize sooner or Later house will have to fight them. BoS hasn't changed goals or civility. They are still technofetishists with an elitist xenophobia.

Moral higher ground sounds really good. But if it hampers you way of conducting warfare soon you end up with enough red tape to hang yourself and your soildiers. Trying to force morals and ethics on nations hasn't traditionally worked that well. Doesnt work well for soldiers either. How many civiliians will die if BoS gains stength enough to make a grab for Houses tech? How many civilians will get caught in the crossfire and then be left to starve or die after a successfull attack?

Annilation of undesirables is one thing. Taking action to secure your assets, citizens and way of live is something entirely else. We have seen many men in nice suits wave papers with worthless words and signatures in the last 70 years.. We have seen continents burn and nations decitmated because "moralities" prohibitied us from acting before it was too late. And in the end most of what we did was count the corpses, bribe the warlords and pretend it never happened. We ended up with casulties that far outnumbered those that could have been. And I am saying that as a pol sci who has made a profession from getting people to sign papers. Diplomacy only works if you have a stick to back you up. The bigger the stick the more people listen. The stick can be many things but usually it ends up being Force of Arms and Finance.

I fail to see any peacefull co-existance between House and BoS. Eradicating BoS before they can ravage vegas is sound logic.

I don't think House has any problems with people making plans. As long as they don't go against his. The kings are ignored in one scenario and in all the House endings FotA are left to their own devices. Thats more than what can be said for NCR and the Legion. People can stay in vegas, or they can go. They can buy his stuff, or they can not. He doesn't demand taxes fealty or slaves. He just wants people to leave him alone and in doing so leave Vegas alone. As for the bulldozing.... Do you really think NCR would be much diffrent? I don't.

The BoS wouldnt destroy new vegas. They would probably just take control of the lucky 38, aquire all of houses tech, kill him and leave after destroying the van graffs. They wont bother anyone else unless they want to hoard the chips.
House is just protecting himself, not NewVegas to be honest.

Mr. House is Charles Foster Kane. He's a communist! He's evil!

- You do know what they did to the Pitt right?

They'd tear it apart. The securitrons would be annihilated if they couldn't be taken over for the BoS, Van Graffs would of course be wiped out, the Kings would undoubtedly throw themselves on the line and be cut down, House would be killed and the casinos ransacked for their technology, BoS would eventually uncover the truth of the Lucky 38's capabilities and set up shop there like they did at Helios One. Not before, of course, ensuring none of the pathetic locals could trouble them any longer, wouldn't want a primitive ape wandering around.

The BoS want tech, the Lucky 38 is a motherhaul, even without the securitrons. No way would they just in and out, they'd cut their way in, they'd leave tatters if they left at all and if they stayed, far worse things would a happen.

Communist? Yous trollin. :unsure2:

@ Hugga- You're exactly right, I've never seen the Western BoS do any white knight things like Lyons Brotherhood, they are the only Brotherhood I can tolerate. The ones in New Vegas are ridiculous IMO, their endings prove this. They either play bandits and raid caravans with high end tech, or they patrol the highway, stopping people and taking anything they deemed unnecassary tech. (Energy Weapons undoubtedly)

Get rid of enough Raiders, cannibals, ect so that it became possible for some kind of civilization to spring up there? Even Midea and Wehrner thought the BoS did the world a favor by scourging the Pitt and admit that Ashur's Regime wasn't nearly as bad as what was going on in the Pitt before the Scourge.

-Sure. They did that. By killing everything short of a handfull of children and reducing ruins to rubble. (Mind you I sided with Ashur).

Everyone says before the brotherhood came it was hell. It was chaos, with trogs and radiation everywhere. Even the raiders couldnt thrive with all that stuff going on, that show bad it was