I can't see anything which makes his appearance conditional on one side or the other winning the battle, just that it has to have finished. This party scene is starting to feel pretty buggy to me. I honestly had no idea until yesterday that anyone besides Ondolemar, Erikur, Maven and Idgrod were supposed to be there.

Ohh I see.

It's either caused by trolling or by ignorance. You can try to educate people but stupidity is incurable thus the only thing that you can do is to just leave them alone, and let them continue to think the way they do because theirs nothing that you can say or do to make them change their minds.

I laugh when people call Ulfric a nazi or a racist or even a Thalmor agent because it truly shows the lack of knowledge of what is occurring in Skyrim.

Ulfric maybe a lot of things but racist/Nazi and a Thalmor agent aren't among the things.

Back on topic, if I were to make a list of (original) Jarls ranging from scummiest to nicest it'd go:

Scum

Igmund - During the Forsworn uprising he (not Ulfric) and the Silverbloods are responsible for the atrocities commited against the Forsworn.

Siddgeir - Selfish tool

Skald - Crazy old man who is in love with Ulfric.

Korir - Hasn't done much to rebuild Winterhold in his time as Jarl.

Idgrod - Despite having a deep affinity for Morthal her visions ultimately do not help the town.

Laila - Is controlled too much by Maven Black-Briar and ignores the Thieves Guild.

Elisif - Despite having Solitudes best interest in mind, Tullius is the boss.

Balgruuf - Has Whiterun's best interest at heart but isn't capable of handling the war.

Ulfric - Sound political and military leader whose rebellion (whether you support it or not) forces the Empire to do something about the Aldmeri Dominion.

This is just my list plus I'm no 'Cloak, I'm neutral.

Igmund was not Jarl during the Forsworn uprising and Markarth incident; that was his father.

You forget:

Sorli: people in Morthal call her selfish, but to be honest, she doesn't have much character.

Kraldar: being ungenerous, he's Savos Aren's sycophant. Less hidebound than Korir, who is teaching his son to pathologically hate all elves, wizards, and foreigners.

Thongvor: is a member of the Silver-Blood family. Other than this, he actually isn't that much different from Igmund.

Dengeir: paranoid to the point of distrusting his steward. Other than his curmudgeonly nature, there's not much that would prevent him from being an effective Jarl.

Hrongar: he would replace Balgruuf, as the original plot of "The Whispering Door" involved driving Balgruuf's children to kill their caregivers and the ritualized murder to the Jarl. A war-mongerer.

Brunwulf: a tolerant, plain man who, while having strong support from Windhelm's minorities, likely has little to no support otherwise.

Maven: a competent businesswoman. Techincally more capable than Laila ever could be, but there is very little chance that her efforts would go to the hold over her own interests.

Brina Merilis: well-liked and willing to listen to guidance.

Erikur: a vain, cowardly, and greedy fop who would replace Elisif if she were killed during "Boethia's Calling."

Bryling: at one point a Jarl, possibly the Stormcloak replacement for Erikur. Very little character; difficult to judge her ruling apptitude.

Vignar: going senile. Not above using his power as Jarl to terrorize his rivals.

***

Many actors do not appear during "Diplomatic Immunity" because their aliases do not allow for reserved references.

I didn't include the replacements since I don't know them as well as the originals.

Judging by his age Igmund would have been in his late 20's at the time of the rebellion and was probably part of the executions which continue to this day still.

I have as well.... About the only place I have NOT seen a patrol is anywhere close to the College. I usually run across them in that hold out by Azura's shrine....


Have to agree with that. Of course, I'm well-known for being in his camp....

Hysterical thread link. I can't say it swayed me much re: my feelings about Balgruuf (I think he's okay - seems like all the jarls slouch except Elisif), but totally made me laugh. Thanks for the share.

Perhaps there's a certain limit to how many people could be at the party and some characters take priority over others as I saw Elisif there and I already beat the civil war for Stormcloaks.

Actually lately when I go to Dragonsreach http://i1096.photobucket.com/albums/g322/Raidensama/Skyrim/TESV2012-05-1521-39-09-30.jpg.

Sorry, no.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Igmund

Igmund's father was killed during the uprising. By the time the Nord militia arrived to win back the city, Igmund was the Jarl, if only a Jarl in absentia. He was the one who made the deal about free Talos worship, he was the one who went back on the deal after it was all over, and any atrocities that were committed in the aftermath of the Nords' victory in Markarth were done under his rule. All Igmund and nobody else, because his father was already dead.

IIRC much or all of that is mentioned or confirmed by him in dialogue if you speak with him.

No I'm pretty sure he wasn't the jarl. Unless his father stepped down at some point. The stablemaster of Markarth says Igmund's father helped arrest Ulfric. Then again the stablemaster could be loony. Or Beth could have trouble being consistent.(Wouldn't surprise me. A lot of the dialogue does seem to point to Igmund being in charge.)

Igmund seems to be following his father's footsteps pretty closely though.

Igmund's father could have still been alive but no longer Jarl. Not every leader waits until death to pass down the throne to there heir.


Quite probable.

Let's see. Banning says "his father helped capture Ulfric Stormcloak after the Markarth Incident."

Igmund's dialogue about the Forsworn uses "we" exclusively, which may be the royal we or "we-the-government-of-Markarth". In any case, he doesn't appear to be taking singular credit for it.

While asking you to find his father's shield, he says his father died "trying to negotiate with the Forsworn, back when that was still possible," which really doesn't seem to indicate a time frame.

In any case, Cedran may be old, but there's nothing to suggest he's mistaken and his dialogue is the most concrete.

***
NPCs will not be moved to Elenwen's party if they are dead, have a negative relationship with the player, or, if they are or were a Jarl, if they've been exiled. Aside from the explicit conditions for certain NPCs listed above, their aliases do not allow reserved references:

-Elisif is reserved by "The Man Who Cried Wolf" (which never ends, so technically she should be reserved forever)
-Ondolemar is never reserved, at least by any quest that explicitly needs him*
-Erikur is reserved by "The Dainty Sload", if it's running
-General Tullius is always reserved
-Balgruuf is always reserved
-Vittoria Vici is always reserved
-Orthus is reserved by "Rise in the East"
-Proventus is always reserved
-Maven is reserved by "Dampened Spirits", but she wouldn't appear if this quest was running anyway
-Igmund is reserved by being the Jarl alias in DialogueMarkarth
-Siddgeir is reserved by being the Jarl alias in DialogueFalkreath
-Idgrod is never reserved, at least by any quest that explicitly needs her*

*May be reserved by a random radiant quest that reserves them.

Reserving an alias is usually used to prevent the actor from doing certain radiant things, like commenting if you drop your trash on the ground or trying to track you down if you hurt their relatives, or from being picked as a target for certain quests, like being rescued by the Companions or having their pockets picked for the Thieves Guild. It's a quick way of saying "this actor is doing something quest-related".

If the reference is reserved but the alias trying to fill with them is not allowing for reserved references, the alias will not fill and so nothing happens. If all the aliases allowed reserved references, and ideally, conditions were met above, the party would have everyone there. This also means that if you pick a bad time to start the quest, only Razelan will be there, if Ondolemar's been killed and Idgrod exiled.

***

Did a test where I set all the aliases to allow reserved rererences and everyone who wasn't specifically excluded -- Balgruuf and Tullius, mainly -- showed up.

With all the guests there, Elenwen is a lot more active, moving to and fro between them, asking them how they're enjoying the party.

And, interestingly, the Jarls discuss things among themselves, mainly, from what I heard, the living conditions of the Dunmer and Argonians and how difficult the war has been on the city coffers.

There's also a nifty little scene once you finish speaking with Orthus where he introduces you to Vittoria.

I know Elisif has some lines where she introduces herself as Jarl of Solitude, but they'll never show up.

Each person there has a distraction: the male Jarls imply Razelan has been calling Ulfric "the rightful High King of Skyrim", the females act as though Razelan has been making lewd comments at them, Orthus and Vittoria imply Razelan has been insulting Elenwen, and there's also the other scenes that one will see normally: Razelan's drunken speech, Erikur yelling at the servant girl, and Idgrod faking a vision.

Erikur's and Razelan's have no prerequisites, and I had the option to attempt to persuade Vittoria to cause a distraction, but all the other guests required being friends with them.

You may not ask Proventus or Tullius to cause a distraction.

Nice find! I had a feeling the reserved alias thing was the final piece of the puzzle, but was too lazy to test it myself. I'm going to mod it as you did next time I have a character doing that quest as I'd love to see the party in full swing. Always thought it seemed a bit low-key with a whole four guests.

http://cloud.steampowered.com/ugc/595844999493042301/D534A4358C846DD099C79D3B33818921B6FD249E/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhRvAoWM8xs

Well I don't know if this is right or not, but it seems, logically that it would make more sense for him to be there if he lost whiterun

Before the battle

• He openly hated the thalmor
  
• He hadn't technically taken a side
  
• He was more concerned about the welfare of whiterun than political affairs

After (if he lost

• He has chosen to side with the imperials
  
• He no longer has any power so he may need to make some...friends
  
• He no longer has to focus on the welfare of Whiterun
  
• The only way for him (although gameplay wise impossible) for him to retake whiterun would be if he could get some other powers on his side

These reasons seem to point towards it being more likely for him to be there if he lost whiterun

This thread made me smile. I don't mind that he's making pay 5000 gold to live in his city, I'm planning on living in Markarth anyway.. Yeah the place there is more expensive, but at least its larger, and awesome looking.

placeatme 0001414D?

When you ask him what side he is on he will say that hes on the side of whiterun but when he is present in the season unending truce meeting in front of General Tullius, Jarl Elisif the Fair and Legate Rikke right after Galmar and Ulfric leave he shows a whole different demeanor. When you give Riften to the imperials Balgruuf seems rather happy about the idea by him saying "This is quite an achievement, Dragonborn. And General Tullius. Riften is ours!"

Clearly an Imperial supporter, and not neutral as many would say.

Look at this speech he makes after the battle of Whiterun for Imperials: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tevzv7QsF7g

Does that even remotely sound like a neutral guy? Typical Imperial Milk Drinker

Yeah, I don't get the assertion that Balgruuf is neutral. He's not gung ho about the empire, but his loyalty to them is never in question. He just waffles about garrisoning a legion in Whiterun.

I don't think he's a scumbag, though. He's a good jarl and I wish we could have persuaded him to jump over to the Stormcloak cause.

Look Celan...

I never considered him neutral. I just don't think he's a scumbag.