Even Ulfric admitts Balgruuf is a true Nord.

Every poll thats been done always has more votes for imperials. I suppose my love of debating the issue makes it seem that way though.

I don't pay much attention to the polls. I read the posts.... and no matter what the various poll percentages show, a pretty large percentage of people who post here regularly are pro 'cloak. Or perhaps they simply post so much more than the others....

You know.... obfuscation and obliteration by sheer volume of hot air?

Hmmm. Don't all Jarls do those things?

Balgruuf wasn't too bad in comparison.

Of the regular debaters I think it's pretty evenly matched in numbers.

Of the lore forum folks I notice its a bit slanted towards stormcloaks though(When we would discuss it at least) save for Crimson Paladin.

It may be a subjective assessment on my part. And honestly I don't have the energy to do a real "count" - not to mention not just at the moment having the time....

Balgruuf has an easier time making his city nice since its always sunny in Whiterun.

He might be a true nord, As what Ulfric says... however he made a very bad political move that was caused by the hatred that Balgruuf has on Ulfric. He was never neutral on the war, as what people would say. He was always with the imperials.. And I have a video clip to prove it too at the meeting with the greybeards.

It's truly amazing how much you discover new things after been through several characters.

I have seen it happen in most of the holds in my hundreds of hours of playing. Even in Windhelm near the main bridge, sorta underneath it.

Ah. I take it that, despite his being a thoroughly misguided and despicable character, Ulfric's judgment and opinions are perfectly acceptable if they agree with what one already thinks anyway.

I honestly think that he is the best jarl, not only is he one of the few jarls actually more concerned about the huge, flying fire-breathing lizards that have returned with the supposed bringer of the apocolypse rather than a power struggle.

He also clearly gives his people the most rights, no matter which way you go with the civil war you can hear irileth and aventus openly criticising/arguing with him, which means that they have the freedom to do so.

And for the war thing, he faultered because he at first saw no need to endanger the lives of his people by joining in a war that had nothing (at the time) to do with whiterun. And when it did, he chose the imperials because the nords had been part of the empire from its beginning and because skyrim needs the empire (says so in his speech if the stormcloaks take whiterun)

More to the point of your OP, if you compare what Ulfric puts you through for Thanedom & Hjerim, my arguement still stands that Ulfric is the scumbagiest of them all. Ofcourse he's still no where near scumy as my PC.

Is that random encounter spot between Haemar's Shame and the Alchemist's Hut still the Falkreath hold or the Riften hold? I've seen Thalmor there quite often, usually walking towards the east.

Otherwise, I usually just see Imperial scumbags dragging Nord prisoners away in the eastern holds. One of these groups ran into the guard near the mine south of Winterhold, and they were nicely disposed off. The prisoner didn't survive it as well.



And could we return to the people who are supposedly at the Thalmor party during Diplomatic Immunity? I've only ever seen there: Idgrod, Erikur, Maven, the cute Thalmor from Markath, the drunken guy. What do you have to do to get more guests to that party?

Me too! Might have to dig deeper with the Creation Kit and see if I can figure this out, if nobody else already knows the answer.

Balgruuf is smart enough, or passionate enough to use the Dovahkiin to enable him to get a temporary peace imposed on the entire province of Skyrim. What other Jarl cares enough to engineer something like this, and then walk his [censored] up to High Hrothgar?

Weird. I know they were in Blue Palace in my game. Maybe it's something fixed by the UESP....

Tullius's involvement seems to be cut which is unfortunate. You can find his dialogue for it in the CS though. I'm not sure on the other folks.

There are a couple of factors involved. One, some people are put there as potential allies in your need to have someone cause a disturbance so you can slip out for your mission. While I've used the silly drunk guy almost every time, other characters can be asked to do it, with success depending on your current standing with them. Some can be perusaded, others will act without needing a speech check. Because of this, some characters simply won't be there if you've "burned that bridge" already and they are hostile to you before this part of the quest. (Interesting note - if Ondolemar is there, using him for the distraction will cause him to be your enemy later after he realizes you used him against his own people.)

The other issue is what else is going on in the world at the time. The stage of the Civil War and other questlines (DB and TG, specifically) affects who will be there and who will be tied up elsewhere.

Well to be fair, there are probably more pro-Imperial people out and about. I just see a lot more pro-stormcloak threads for some reason, a little comically so. It's almost like a form of buyers regret, someone buys something so they need to tell everyone how right and great of a choice it was to justify buying it in the first place and thus feel better about their choice. That's just how I see it though.

I find the whole thing rather amusing. My preference depends solely on my current character. When I was playing a pro-Imperial, then 'Yay Imperials!" but right now I'm playing a Stormcloak, so "Huzzah! Go Stormcloaks!" Motivations matter, too. My Imperial had different motivations than my Thalmor-hating Stormcloak. And of course, my current character just wants to have Ulfric's babies.

A lot of people seem to be making a principled choice, and that's cool, but it's my character's principles that matter for me.

It says a lot about the game that people do spend much time debating the politics in an imaginary world. I'm pro-Skyrim.

Pff, it's because on every thread about the subject you see reams of stupid crap like "Ulfric is a Nazi/ racist/ Thalmor agent/ tortures puppies for fun and profit" etc.

OK, being a nerd and having had a good look in the Creation Kit, it appears to me that:

• Ondolemar, Erikur, Elisif, Siddgeir, Igmund, and lIdgrod should always be present unless dead.
  
• Tullius is present if "Message to Whiterun" has been completed and neither "Battle for Whiterun" nor "Battle for Windhelm/Solitude" is active.
  
• Vittoria Vici is present if "Bound Until Death" is not running and she is not enemies with the player.
  
• Orthus Endario is present if "Rise in the East" is not running and he is not enemies with the player.
  
• Proventus Avenicci is present if "Battle for Whiterun" and "The Whispering Door" are not running.
  
• Maven Black-Briar is present if "Dampened Spirits" is not running, she is not enemies with the player, and she has not become Jarl of Riften.
  
• Balgruuf is present if "Battle for Whiterun" has been completed.

Funny thing is I have never seen Elisif, Siddgeir, or Igmund there in spite of them not having any conditions on them that I can see. I've also never seen Vittoria Vici there even on my character who didn't join the Dark Brotherhood. It's possible that they are 'reserved' by other quests though, which I think would prevent them from being used at the party.

Interesting, because I just did Diplomatic Immunity while also completing the Liberation of Haafingar (which means Battle for Whiterun was old news) and I'm almost positive Balgruuf wasn't there, and I even looked around to see who was. Does it matter who *won* the Battle for Whiterun? I can't imagine why it would.

Whos Orthus?

The guy running the East Empire Company in Windhelm.