Level scaling mod

Post » Tue May 15, 2012 10:38 pm

[snip]

As much as the idea of "gain skill by using it" makes sense in a lot of ways, it doesn't mesh well with the scaled-world system. The reason's really simple... the more you experiment with various skills, the more the world levels up. It's not just the more you kill/quest/work on your main skills, the world levels up around you if you decide to spend some time crushing up flowers in a bowl or picking locks. This means that, optimally, you will never use any skill that you don't plan to seriously level up. These skills will be useful if you level them higher, but they'll just be padding your level if you only add 20 or so skill to them and move on.

In "traditional" RPG leveling systems (and I'm not saying they're good, I'm just saying they match a level-scaled world better) you gain XP from most things you do that involve your skills, then use that XP to level up the skills you choose. It's not realistic, but it allows the player to:
1) Use any skill they want to at any point without fear of "harming" their character build,
2) Decide which skills matter when it's time to level up (and for the world to level up).
So you get to play with low level smithing, enchanting, spell-casting, whatever without it resulting in a sub-optimal build. If you decide you like one of these skills, you can start pouring points in there during a level up.

On the other hand, if the world were static-leveled (by which I mean each area has its own level, so you might find a level 40 dungeon if you wander too far into the deep forest) then the "use it to level" it system suddenly becomes perfectly balanced. Since your level no longer determines the difficulty of the enemies encountered, you can level your character however you like without worrying about "gimping" your build. Then you can decide which difficulty of encounters you want, using your level as more of a general guide than a world-scaling variable. The other thing a static world adds is the ability to try to fight above your level, which is the whole point of trying to make an optimized build in the first place; to take on higher level challenges. With the leveled world, there simply are no higher level challenges.

I really think that one of these two things needs to go. Personally I still like "use it to level it" so I'd much rather see a completely static-leveled world (maybe the main quest could be exempt; let it level with the player if you need to, but I want to encounter dungeons of pre-determined set difficulty).

[snip]

Great post. I was going to type something along the same lines, but you did it better and sooner.

I'd personally argue for a completely static-leveled world. The resulting "less content" problem is a lot less complicated than it often seems, although the solution is one that requires more time than devs ever have, and much modding - increase the amount of content in the static-leveled world to equal or exceed that of the level-scaled world. Eg, if "Doom Dungeon" originally spawned creatures in 1-5, 6-15, and 16-25 level ranges, you can instead spawn static level 12 creatures but expand the dungeon (and/or its immediate surroundings) to include a few level 4 creatures, and put a level 20 boss at the end. The lesser creatures, and/or the environment can give suitable cues regarding how dangerous things are going to get.

It's a lot more work, but a static-leveled world is a lot more consistent (read: less game-y and daft) and provides a much better environment for character progression (and the reasons for it).

Another thing that really bothers me (and it's not strictly relevant, but related), is the inappropriate distribution of power/risk among different types of creature. The ubiquitous "nameless bandit" is seemingly an incredibly dangerous foe; many levels after I'd slain my first dragon and absorbed its soul as a quasi-divine hero, I was getting wiped out by orc bandits, bandit mages, and bears. For all Bethesda do to accomodate the fantasy hero archetypes in TES, they continually beat them down with encounter design (and NPC interactions) that seem intended to remind us that actually, we're just scum to be coerced by every obnoxious NPC, and killed horribly by every bandit and dangerous animal that comes along.

Not only would I make dungeon levels static, I'd take care to design enemies in such a way that the challenge they offer is consistent with who and what they are within the setting. Ever wonder why a spider the size of your car is much easier to defeat than a common man of Whiterun who turned to violent crime?

Usually I get around the 'you're not powerful, and never need to be' effect by playing a custom race with some hero-themed or supernatural advantages, but as nice as Skyrim is, I think its level scaling and related systems deserve a major overhaul mod.
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Stephanie Nieves
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 2:26 am

Urk, I really don't see the problem here. This is my own personal opinion though, but still:

This is a RPG, read it Role-Playing Game. Many of you have the game stuck in your heads without the Role-Playing bit in there, and it doesn't work that way. If you are playing a diplomat, who can talk their way out of every situation, of course you are going to be weak in combat. Subsequently, if you play a character who has combat-oriented skills, of course you are going to be godly in combat.
It seems you fail to understand the problem with level scaling.
It's not "I'm not developping my combat skill and hence I'm not good at combat !". That is simply common sense.
It is :
- "everyone becomes more powerful at combat because I sold some stuff to a merchant/built an armor/convinced someone".
- Stuff that didn't exist is suddendly found everywhere.
- I progress but somehow I'm weaker.

Sure, someone who doesn't specialize in fight won't fight a lot better. But why should the same bandits become HARDER when you learn non-combat-related stuff ? Why should we even bother with leveling when everything else also level with us ?
What's the point of putting a level system if it's to destroy it with level scaling ?
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Sheeva
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 1:32 am


As for the loot, I am currently level 42; the loot i find is usually level appropriate, i sometimes find some unique and very cool weapons/armors (even with my 100 blacksmith and enchanting made gear) that are usually great for the level i find them at. The enemies? I sometimes see a half decent piece on equipment on an enemy but more than not they wear stuff that at level 42 is just junk to me. This is spot on as far as i am concerned.



no offense sir but :

please NEVER AGAIN call this loot you find UNIQUE its definitly not.
UNIQUE means this item only exists ONCE which is 99% not the case even the dragon priest masks are not very unique because they all LOOK THE SAME simple texture changes are not what i except from PAID devs thats lazyness. the only real unique items currently are the deadric ones. thats what i call unique. but they are all quest rewards.

its just pure random BS made by lazy bethesda devs AGAIN the same [censored] was in oblivion with rare random jewelry. but atleast in oblivion it was useful.

they made handcrafted dungeons but didnt make HANDPLACED loot so they destroyed one of the most important RPG factors for nearly all dungeons which makes the handcrafted dungeons argument useless. i have now explored atleast over 80% of the whole map ands its always the same randomness in 99% of dungeons. these freakin big random chests are EVERYWERE.

And they always contain a bunch of random items which is nonsense. why can i find a DEADRIC sword in a big chest inside a bandit camp? or inside a cave full of falmers? why? makes no sense. and none of them is unique + they are bad compared to selfmade improved ones. even the items not in the chests are guess what? LVL BASED. its idiotic, they found a new method to place the leveled items on tables and other things it seems which is sad they better spend this time handplacing the loot according to the enemys that guard it.

this entire problem makes exploring a waste of time for any item/treasure hunter out there. its just the same as sitting in front of a stupid slot machine only with pretty graphics.

it will be ALOT of work for the modders to make the items not lvl based and HANDPLACED in this world. after this is done tough what is still needed are NEW meshs also which can be used to create new really UNIQUE loot but we all know making new meshs especially for armor is alot of work and needs alot of time. THEN. finally skyrim can and will become what it could have been if the devs had actually used 2-3 people to only bother with the loot in ALL dungeons.
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darnell waddington
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 11:31 pm

Doing the 2nd part of Azura's Daedic quest, those fire casters, my god, I let off three arrows and I dead. That happened in level 23 in Adept . Have to go down to Novice even that is still hard. Damn casters.

Typing about casters, those mages in that fort near that shine. Now I know how a mossies feels when get zapped by a bug zapper.
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NAtIVe GOddess
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 11:39 pm

My ass has been handed to me various times.

The level scaling is fine. If anything, I've found moments where the enemies are too strong (not that that's a bad thing).
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vicki kitterman
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 1:46 pm

Not only would I make dungeon levels static, I'd take care to design enemies in such a way that the challenge they offer is consistent with who and what they are within the setting. Ever wonder why a spider the size of your car is much easier to defeat than a common man of Whiterun who turned to violent crime?
This, one thousand times.
My ass has been handed to me various times.

The level scaling is fine. If anything, I've found moments where the enemies are too strong (not that that's a bad thing).
The problem with level scaling is not how hard or how easy the game is, it's how non-immersive it is, and how pointless it makes discovery and accomplishments.
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Auguste Bartholdi
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 10:54 pm

Just chiming in to mention that there is non quest related hand placed unique loot (though I agree there is not enough). Red Eagle's Sword and the Ghostblade are two examples of things you might stumble upon by pure chance. Yes, once you enter the dungeons where they are found a quest starts, but there is nothing sending you to the dungeons as far as I know. Had I not decided to explore them upon finding them in the wilderness, I would never have realized I missed something.
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Alberto Aguilera
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 3:52 pm

You obviously haven't been attacked by 3 cave bears at the same time. That's [censored] hard xD
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Mizz.Jayy
 
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Post » Wed May 16, 2012 2:10 am

The problem with level scaling is not how hard or how easy the game is, it's how non-immersive it is, and how pointless it makes discovery and accomplishments.


This! People on this forum have completely lost their minds, saying removing level scaling would make the game linear. The game would be REALISTIC if level scaling was removed. When you're level 1, there should be some enemies in some caves in the vast lands of Skyrim who absolutely crush you. This does not make the game linear as some here on the forums argue, it makes the game realistic and immersive. Returning to that cave 10 levels later to find the mysteries within and having an epic boss battle is the joy of roleplaying.

It's sickening how many who are arguing that every dungeon and quest should be conquerable at any level because anything else would make the game linear. I mean, what has to go through someones mind to make that argument?
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Marnesia Steele
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 8:09 pm

I have ran into the issue overall that the game is losing it's challenge after level 20 when really leveled up and pumped with sneak % and back stab damage or slit throat attacks. I've ran through a dungeon sneaking without being seen even face to face in bright lights, still able to back stab from any direction of the enemy getting the 15x damage or slit throat bonus. Dungeons basically would take far less time than they should. This is on Master settings too. I'm not sure whether to be proud of myself or not in any case being able to assassinate and sneak around with ease. The moment I make a mistake or slip-up, I definitely do and will die with ease. The main issue I guess is that the dungeons lack NUMBERS in enemies and more tough enemies together in clusters or more challenging routines. Only imbalanced enemy I know of is the mammoths, their attack range is nearly impossible to dodge and is powerful.
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Daniel Lozano
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 1:02 pm

Post limit.
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u gone see
 
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