The only similarity between Oblivion's level-scaling and Skyrim's is the fact that they're both level-scaling. I'm not trying to pick a fight, but I don't see how people can claim to have put significant hours into both games, and come to the conclusion that they're the same, when they're clearly not. I think people are making a mountain out of a mole-hill in terms of level-scaling in this game, if you don't like level-scaling in general that's fine, someone will mod that out for you eventually, but comparing it to the extent of Oblivion's is hyperbolic to say the least.

It's not about them being the same. Skyrim is a definite improvement. That said, I don't want exotic loot to be easily available at any level. I want it to be very rare all the way through the game. I got my character to lvl 15 and I am already swimming in dwemer, elven, and orcish. Soon enough will come the glass, and then the ebony. TES games have been that way all the way back to Daggerfall.

I want all of that stuff to be very rare throughout the game. Now that's me and my preferences. In Oblivion I made mods to cater to my own tastes and got a great deal of enjoyment from the game because of them. I have played enough Skyrim to understand that I will have to do the same.

As far as leveling creatures, have to see when the CK comes out. Skyrim seems to be much better than Oblivion in this regard.

I'd suggest starting to hunt for the Dragon Priest Masks.

They fit a lot of what you were describing being nice with Oblivion.

That's fine with regards to generic high end loot like Ebony, Daedric, Glass and Dragon etc. Although it was much better having only a single set of Daedric armour in Morrowind because it was the ultimate non-enchanted heavy armour. In fact, in Morrowind alone there was a missing pauldron! We didn't get the missing one until the Bloodmoon add-on was released. However, instead of being annoying this just added to the mysticism! Bethesda were inadvertently brilliant in their error!

I personally DO want the chance to come across unique weapons and armour in hard to reach remote places however. I'm sure Phitt and a few others in this thread would agree. If you played Morrowind, you might remember the unique loot in that, sometimes you just found it by chance like Eleidon's Ward, the Daedric bow and Daedric Dai-katana. Other times you had to go on some quest or make some effort to fashion these unique items like Elton Brand and Chrysamere. Either way, it was chance that you happened on them at ANY level. Getting them at any level however was very difficult in some cases. Sometimes you had to fight an enemy(ies) way above your level, but often if you were clever enough there would be ways to beat them or slip by them with an invisibility potion/high sneak skill for example. Other times you might need a potion of levitation and a mindset to take a chance and check out that high up alcove, well out of view.

All of this amazing gameplay was missing in Oblivion, hence many peoples dis-taste for it. Instead we were presented with a god awful levelled loot system, in which the loot was more often than not, a slightly better longsword, some bonemeal and a gem or two because of the randomly generated chest contents at the end of a dungeon. In other words there was NO incentive to explore, to go out into the wild and trawl through dungeons, because the inevitable reward was crap! The only unique loot you obtained was from obvious quest lines that the game purposefully funnelled you towards! People often argue that knowing the location of the unique hand placed loot in Morrowind meant you could just go there and get it again next time round. While this was true, I argue that being forced to get the 'Ebony Blade' in Oblivion (for example) is an even worse form of this! Where's the surprise in being rewarded with this same sword everytime you repeat the same unavoidable quest? Or the same mace from Molag Bhaal etc etc...

Fortunately, some talented people modded some great weaponry into Oblivion, Arkay, Oscuro and the guy that did those 'Legends' weapon mods where you had to actually read a book and look for clues to find these amazing weapons. You'd not get Bethesda taking a chance like that in a million years! There'd be too many (and I hate saying this but it's true) instant gratification seeking console players moaning because the weapon is too hard to find. Bethesda followed this gameplay trend in Morrowind and then suddenly we get Oblivion and it's ridiculous iteration of loot hunting!

Anyhoo, these are my thoughts and apologies for ranting at you in particular. Wanted to share my opinion though. Lastly, and to answer your question I think people are concerned that Skyrim already appears to be making the same mistakes as Oblivion, albeit nowhere near as badly.

I was referring mainly to high end generic stuff rather than unique loot. Interesting unique loot is fun to come across provided you have earned it. You don't even have to use it - it's just fun to find. Haven't seen anything of the sort yet in Skyrim but I am only on one character at level 15.

Aye, there was a time when high end generic loot like ebony, daedric and even glass was super rare (Morrowind). Unfortunately the prolificity of it in Oblivion and Skyrim is a symptom of the absurd levelled loot system. Any way I see, understand and pretty much agree with your point.

I have to admit, I found it pretty easy at level 1-5 then from there to about level 9 I started getting my ass kicked. But then I started using my perks for destruction and restoration. I still struggle but I became pretty damn uber to most of the folks i burn to [censored]!

All in all I think its a little too easy. I'm playing on the hardest setting as an argonian, and iv only really had about 4 or 5 really difficult encounters. I'm now on level 20. Really enjoying the game though. Quite surprised how many people have problems with the difficulty. Its not like your only ever going to play it once! After your first run through you'll get some mods and you're away!

SGM

I actually agree with you guys on the higher tier generic armors (glass, daedric, and ebony), should be harder to find, lorewise aren't they rare, expensive, etc. I think a mod/patch where you need more materials to craft them, and they probably should remove them from vendor's list and place pieces in random dungeons, or dungeon loot tables. As far as unique loot, there just isn't a lot of it, and most of them that are in this game are Daedric Artifacts, the ones that are in, are fixed and are in dungeons of varying difficulty. We'll have to wait for content mods for more.

I'm playing a mage and I've stopped sneaking and lockpicking. There doesn't seem to be any way of magically unlocking except potions and it's leveling me up too fast, I want my unlock spell back. My mage doesn't one hit kill things except with the fire antranoch. I was feeling like I was cheating having to summon it all the time because I couldn't kill much except wolves and bandits but I hear melee can one hit kill so a destruction mage seems to be a bit underpowered.

Having the dungeons permanently locked to a min max level when you first visit it is a right pain. I like exploring and it puts me off knowing just having a look in a dungeon (I'd covered a lot of the map by level 10) permanently sets it at a lower difficulty. Also dungeons once cleared stay cleared? I like respawning dungeons, just not every three days though. Actually with respawn dungeons I'd like chance to spawn chests, as in chance of not being any this time round.

I can't wait for the cs to take a look at what's been done exactly with the npc's loot.

Dungeons respawn, may take 2 weeks to a month or even more in game time, but they do respawn. There's a 150 dungeons in the game, and the super fast leveling system means you'll have plenty of dungeons to explore through a playthrough, not to mention the Radiant Story which will create quests for you indefinitely, so don't worry about locking dungeons.

I did just that. I skipped the main quest and traveled to Riften as soon as I got out of Helgen. I've spent about 10 levels now traveling around the Rift and from the Rift up to Windhelm. And my experience in these areas mirrors Phitt's. As I said earlier, my experience so far leads me to believe there are no regional difficulty levels in this game. If there are, they are far too subtle for me to have noticed them.

This is I believe an official statement made by Beth:

Different locations in Skyrim have different inherent difficulties. In other words, some dungeons are designed to be too difficult for low-level characters to enter. More challenging dungeons are generally located at higher elevations, meaning that early in the game players may want to avoid mountainous regions. However, more difficult dungeons contain better rewards. In addition, some high-quality items can be randomly found even early in the game.

The level of a given dungeon is fixed the first time you enter it. Therefore, places that you enter early in the game will always contain relatively weak enemies, even if you return to the same dungeon at the end of the game.

So it's weird that people are experiencing differently, not calling you guys liars, it's just weird, even disappointing if it's not working as intended.

And I don't know what the default respawn time is, but it may be like Fallout 3 where some zones never respawn.

So once you clear an area it may not respawn but if it did then it would be the same difficulty as before? Odd design choice.

[edit] damn double post - well let me edit to make better.

I wanted to post http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1261289-skyrim-de-levelled/page__view__findpost__p__19239350 in this thread actually:
Well the first post anolysis of the level scaling is missing a key component: Fallout 3 which is what (as I understand it) Skyrim is largely based on. With it the level of a zone is set based on the first time you visit and stays that way for the rest of the game. So it is still based on character level but then is less threatening as you level.

That is purported to be the way that Skyrim is leveled based on announcements earlier in the year, but I'm not so sure after having played all weekend. certainly most opponents are slightly weaker, but some boss fights are not weak at all. In fact it is like night and day with a few of them. Which is strange when I hear about people beating dragons at level 4.

Due to this I've been avoiding dragons and the main quest and may not get to it till level 20 or so. I think I will just be angry if I could beat a dragon at level 4. That really would be a let down. the solutions to Oblivion scaling are pretty well documented in the Scaling Overhaul Comparison the main division being rescaling (reworking the way it scales) versus unscaling (you can meet or find anything from level 1 ... up anywhere at any time).

My beef with Oblivion overhauls is the lack of modularity. We have more advanced tools and will have them sooner than any previous game, so I would like to advocate for certain approaches to addressing this issue. Level scaling if it is handled like the previous two games can be addressed by editing leveled list entries and this method can then integrate well with Wrye Bash style patching of leveled list mods. Where it is frustrating with Oblivion is that most overhauls go so far as to give their scaling solutions and then go much further by then adjusting magic, combat, stealth, and other game mechanics so as to turn the mod into an overahul that then requires more and more patches to work with other mods. This I don't like - especially since the last few years of Oblivion modding has shown that these aspects of the game are better modded with script extender mods.

I would advocate for leveled list alternatives to be created and then as new creatures and loot are created to either make them cohere to variations on the leveled list options or make patches so that they can work with them. But just the leveled list bit. I'm hoping that such mods will shy away from making edits that can better be done with scripts on the fly.

I wouldn't mind working on an unscaled encounter/loot mod - as in unscaled as in the mod TIE where you can meet/get anything from level 1 up. Then from that work on rescaled options.

I hope Bethesda will take the time and money to make a game as big or bigger than the past few TES games with no scaling whatsoever one day.

It will be interesting to find out how the scaling really works in Skyrim once some serious modders figure the system out.

Oh there is a newer kind of overhaul that might be worth considering as a port to Skyrim: http://www.gamesas.com/index.php?/topic/1232931-relz-dll-dynamic-leveled-lists-thread-6/

Though likely it would have to be done by the author Leviathan1753.

With it one can adjust the leveled list encounters to occur differently and is adjustable.

I've not used it yet. It does most definitely require OBSE and does work with other mods that add leveled lists.

So if we were to really rethink leveled list this is a departure from the norm for sure.

Honestly the first thing an unscaling mod should do is turn the first dragon in the main quest into an ailing dragon. Or some weaker version where you can feel satisfied having killed it, but know much stronger foes lay out there.

I made a test today by using player.setlevel x before entering a dungeon and then getlevel on enemies to see whether they're leveled or not. I did this in Cragslane cavern near the Morrowind border so far only. The cave has some bandits inside as well as 'gamblers' (you will see why if you get there). My results:

1. With a player level of 1 the bandits and gamblers inside all had level 1 as well and crap equipment (iron/hide).

2. With a player level of 25 the bandits were all level 25 as well, the gamblers were around level 6-9. The bandits had pretty good equipment, an enchanted Dwarven Greatsword, Steel Plate armor and the like.

3. With a player level of 50 it was the same as with a level of 25 (loot of course slightly different, but of similar quality - steel plate armor on one of the bandits etc), except that the 'barkeep' (one of the gamblers wearing clothes) was level 25 as well. I'm not sure I checked him with a player level of 25, so maybe he was already 25 when I was 25 as well.

As far as I can see there is definitely a level cap for enemies. But not one that would really matter that much. From level 1-25 the bandits and their loot leveled 100% with the player, the gamblers did only level up to level 6/9, except for the barkeep, who leveled just like the bandits. The loot leveled as well, but I guess also only up to level 25 quality stuff (doubt I would ever find Daedric or Glass on the bandits, even when they're level 25).

It's better than in Oblivion, but still far too much level scaling for my taste. Due to the way the level up system works the cave will become harder the closer you get to level 25, afterwards it will become easier again. Doesn't make much sense to me.


I agree. In some cases it felt like the author didn't want to abandon his overhaul/simply add new enemies/loot to the lists all the time. So he added new features out of boredom and 'because he could'. I don't like it either when leveling overhauls do a ton of other things that I don't want in my game and that cause compatibility issues that need to be resolved with patches. So basically you need a patch for something you never wanted in your game anyway.

Uggh - are you saying the level of new content gets capped at level 25? Is that what I'm reading? That's ... that's horrible. You couldn't even do the main quest and a guild before maxing out.

Elsewhere I read someone (M'Aiq I think) claimed that it is capped at 50. What evidence or reports are there of this?

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And to add to the overhauls overreach argument - yes of the 6 or so Oblivion installs I've had many (60% or more) of the mods I've had in these load orders tended to be patches or mods to do the other things like I wanted and therefor ended up overwriting these things in the overhaul anyway. Constant compatibility concerns. Frustrating - yet all but two overhauls that I can think of overreached and so it was a necessary evil if you wanted that scaling.

Nah, I think the cap only applies for that one particular dungeon I tested. Or most likely for the enemy type inside the dungeon, maybe all bandits are capped at level 25, but I'm sure there are other enemies that are capped at higher levels. The point I was making is that the dungeon I tested behaves exactly like one of Oblivion's dungeons in regards to level scaling until you reach level 25. Afterwards it will become easier. In Oblivion the bandits would have scaled infinitely so if the player is level 60 the bandits inside the dungeon would have also been level 60. So it's better than Oblivion, but still a bit .

This is the thing that bugs me.
You never know if that random bear or saber cat is tough or not. And the difference between low level and high level bear/bandit/whatever seems kinda huge.

Actually, I've walked with a few giants/mammoths so you're correct in that sense, but I've ate it pretty quickly, when blundering into a Giant's camp plenty of times.BTW, my comment was more light hearted than anything else, my "bad" as I rarely use emos.. But only if they're willing! <--Bad pun

I never said anything was capped at any level, I said that the player's progression (unless power-gaming) will slow down so much when the player reaches levels in the range of 50-60 that it can be considered a max level for the player. I also said "correct me if I'm wrong" as I am not sure if this is universally true. Skyrim's new player leveling system does however make the player's progression grind to a halt at some point (again, unless power gaming). And I have no idea what the highest level any dungeon in the vanilla game can reach is.
I also agree with Phitt that the 1-25 scaling he experienced is way, way, way too large an interval, and this only confirms my suspicions of the level scaling not being that much better than Oblivion's in some places.

My misunderstanding them - didn't mean to put words in your mouth.

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It seems that character leveling in this game is such that all skill ups are like what used to be called efficient leveling. So it seems no matter what skills I level my character's level is increasing pretty fast. Not sure what impact this will have if, say, I avoid leveling pickpocketing for 20 levels then train in it if that will result in making a new level just by taking 5-8 trainings in it.

As it is now I've found that levels 1-10 just taking all 5 training opportunities has resulted in a new level. Like if you had the money you could gain all levels through trainings alone.

So just recently (level 16) I added the skill slow down mod.

5 hours of skyrim is like 5 minutes of another game. You haven't seen anything.