That's true, I got my timeline wrong. However they were going to abandon Hammerfell entirely to a Thalmor attack force- then bartered away Hammerfell's land. Loyalty for disloyalty, that doesn't work.

It is about whether Nords rule themselves or continue to take orders from Cyrodiil. You don't think this is Cyrodiil vs. Skyrim? Why is Tullius in Skyrim?

LMFAO, u soemthing that always surprised me was that we wave the red flag over the 2 nord drunks that insult and threaten the dunmer woman when we first enter the city.....but i really doub anyoen actually followed her to her work at the docks and listened to what she says flat out about and to the argonians. And if u are still cant see what shes saying and live in america then by all means replace 'argonians" with "black" and not be offeneded more than those 2 drunks ever did.

As far as Ulfric not supporting or helping out Cryodill...in a war that was thier own fault with an other country yes thye lost thier ally BUT against the Thalmor? Bah Ulfric's own words that he bringing the war to them and if he has to, he will carve a path thru the Empire to do it. So no it wont be 1 on 1 with Empire and Skyrim all teamed up and buddy, but it would be 2 on 1. The Empire would have "help' fighting the thalmor but help as in having a savage foaming bear fight the same thing u are fighting, let it fight and ur fine...get between it an its prey...prepared to be mauled.


Also....u know whats sad, i really believe the reason why Ulfric is all gunho on slaughtering every bandit that harms a nords caravan or home "beside hte fact a majority of his army is Nords" is problemly for the fact he is showing and proving to his men/women that he actually does and can PROTECT those that SERVE under him. Not that i said serve, just because u live on a piece of land for awhile and dotn do anythign for soemone dosent mean that person has to do anything for you, specially if u are alrdy SELFGOVERNED and dotn pay lip to them man in charge of ur area. Unlike the Empire that has failed to protect its citizens many times, due to hammerfell, the talos ban and slaughter of talos worshippers, and even Ulfric himself here the mepire couldnt even hold up their end of a bargain that started the whole damn thing.

having just played the battle of whiterun once again (stormcloak side) and winning, I can attest to some discrimination the Nords hold towards non-Nords. Adrianne Avenicci attests that the Stormcloaks really like to avoid doing business with her simply because she is a non-nord. If it isn't for the fact that she's married to a Nord, she'd have to close up shop.

Now, this isn't blatant racism, but it is discriminatory.

So the actions of Titus Mede II condemn the entire Empire, including the general who let many Redguards stay in Hammerfell to continue fighting the Thalmor (quite successfully, in fact) before answering to his orders? Even General Tullius says he's not so sure about the peace they've made with the Thalmor (even if he conceals said feeling most of the time).

He's in Skyrim because he was sent there, because he's a Legion General sent there. The fact remains: half of Skyrim still supports the Empire and wants to remain a part of it.

But lets also take into account that the Empire has been the ruler for many years and that even the steward in solitude says that the population will follow whoevers in charge because its been breed into them to honor the traditions of thier fathers and serve the one in charge. So you could put a puppet on the throne or if the moot was even callled to put a gaint on the throne, if the moot said it was so, a majority would go along because its breed into them.

Good bit of the population are doign what their doing because its what they always done....thats pretty much it, not that they actually believe in it but for many dont think theirs another way becauseit would be going against tradition.

also lets forget the fact that she was the one supply the legion soldies for thier weapons and armor that were used against them.....Greymane was the one that stood up and let himself be known to be for the stormcloaks, to the stormcloaks that just took over the town, to see soemone who smithed and supplied my enemy with weaposn and armor...dotn think id do business with them either.

And if the Nords choose to support the Empire in the face of Ulfric's rebellion, they're entirely in their right to do so. And keep in mind that the majority of the Jarls at the time voted for Torygg, not just the ones that now support the Empire. And having the votes of the Jarls of Markarth, Morthal, and Whiterun isn't enough to have a majority.

The voting of Torygg was before the whole rebellion. Also u have to take into account Toryggs father was well liked and was considered strong and just which everyoen thought waswhat the son would be also....unfortauntly the King was to easy to manipulate to persuade. yes he respected ulfric's talk of independence BUT as the High King who suppose tobe an example for everyone didnt have the strength to voice and do soemthing about those ideals. But u also talk to same person and she says that if Ulfric asked him too he woulda problemly joined...then takes about 5 mins explaining what the king thought which was the opposite of an independent country...He was young and problemly had 4 or 5 advisors that spoke for him like they do with his still living wife. yes its cruel he was takign out but at the same time, him being high king means that he couldnt afford the luxory of letting things slide or be exscused for him because of his age and experience, he was the position and he didnt measure up to the posiition, maybe ifhis father lived a bit longer and the king was a bit wiser...but id problmely still say the king woulda still been against it., hence hwy Ulfric woulda still had to duel him...besides the last i saw the king, he had no regrets was happily living it up in soverngarde =]

It doesn't condemn. It means that it's time for new leadership and for Skyrim to go its own way.

Not disputed, but it still is Cyrodiil interfering in Skyrim's affairs.

If you don't expect some ill feeling during a civil war, you have odd ideas about what war is like. Also I believe someone else pointed out she was supplying weapons for the imperials.

blah blah. i bet some people can't wait for the mod that comes out that puts little devil horns on adrianne avenneci.

If your relatives were dying on her swords, maybe you'd consider that reason enough to go up to Eorlund instead.

Lucky for me, I don't have a family in this game. I go to both merchants. Whoever requires the least steps to walk to at the moment.

Yet they do it in a time when it will benefit the Thalmor, when their time and effort would be better spent recovering and preparing for relations between the Dominion and Empire to fall apart, rather than opening hostilities in a time when the mannish nations need to stand together. They'd be better off waiting to see if Titus Mede II's successor is any better, and see how the Empire fares against the Dominion when peace falls apart (which it will). Of course, we all know reason for such is that it was the Thalmor that orchestrated it to weaken the Empire and Skyrim. It's hardly the first time someone with questionable priorities has ruled the Empire, and all those times there was never a powerful anti-man threat hanging over their heads.

It is bad timing. Kind of selfish on Ulfric's part to raise this level of hell, legitimate grievances aside. He's an ex-soldier in the imperial army. You'd think he'd know better, and consider the big picture of things. Instead, he just focuses mostly on other Nords who support the Empire. That makes little sense to me. And from what I can tell, they're not even monstrous Nords or anything like that. It's not like Braveheart, for example, when there were those smug Scottish nobles who schemed and got fat off their own people. The political differences here are less tragic and less immediate. It's a matter of a 30 year old contract and a religion.. These issues can at least be discussed. Instead, he wants to be provocative and start executing people and sh*t.

edit:

Hell, just to go back to Braveheart, he can't even be cool like William Wallace was, when he tells Robert the Bruce that "if you just grew some balls, I'd gladly follow you". He doesn't make enemies out of Bruce. It's a cool moment in the movie, where Wallace shows how pure his motives are. He's not out for grabbing power or wants to depose anyone. He's not out to prove how big his dike is, and that people will better if he was king of Scotland instead. He just wants freedom. And like Bruce, Torryg is young and naive and torn between sides. And he also looks up to Ulfric, like Bruce did with Wallace. Instead Ulfric kills him.

As far as freedom fighting movements go, Ulfric is off to a strange start, when he starts pointing his guns at his own people first.

of course, and I fully expect sour feelings and prejudices. It is a war, after all.

also, I don't quite consider the argument about her smithing for the imperials even valid. It would be one thing if she could churn out weapons like a factory. But she's just a local blacksmith. She'll make weapons for whoever contracts her. It's not like she actively supports one side over the other in the war. I'm certain she'd gladly make stormcloak weapons now that they're in charge, if they pay her.

The Stormcloaks fall in love with Carlotta just like everyone else, and she's an Imperial. The only difference? They don't bathe.

I don't see Skyrim doing nothing as the rest of Tamriel burns. If anything, they more likely to their army destroyed by attempting to invade Summerset.

eh i talked to the lady who said that if Ulfric asked he "might" have joined him....and then right there for almost 5 minutes give me reasons why the king wouldnt have...like literally right after saying if ulfric asked...then goes on for 5 minutes of all the things that the king disagree with and it mkaes it seem the king would have only for the fact that Ulfric asked, not that he believed the sacrifise was worth it or a need to. So basically it dosent look like he would have at all.

We'll never know, I guess. At the very least, it sounds like a cheap, unnecessary kill to me. If his mind was so set on freedom for Nords, he'd get straight to business. Instead, he goes for a bunch of symbolic acts and attacks his fellow Nords. He's stupid.

well to also take from ur example from braveheart, William wallace also killed his country men who sided with England, and he did it himself just like Ulfric did with the high King. yes motives are a bit different but actions were the same, i think he got rid of the high king for 2 reasons. one was to make a statement or annoucement, and 2 from multiple resourses we see the king himself was very impressionable, man of no action, he had mutliple advisors that spook for him that made decisions he should be making but wouldnt stand on his own 2 feet, was considered a "good" person but was a weak king for reason of his age and experience and unfortuantly because he was the high king hes suppose to be the example nomatter what his age or experience is, he is the role and cant have those as excuses. So in the eyes of Ulfric for a indpenedent skyrim, we needed a new king who was stronger. At least ulfric did give the king a chance to survive all he had to do was decline and his position would have forfeited but he would have lived and they could have called the moot to figure out the new king, BUT as king he did accept and accept the challenge like a man. TBH Ulfric didnt even need to use the shout on the king at all, he could have easily difeated the king on 1 on 1 combat seeing how Ulfric was an ex-soldier and has been fighting during the war AND also markarth, so using the voice it was a statement, because it would have made an even bigger statement than just goign thru the duel and just takign him easily one on one, either way the kign was gonna die whenever he accepted. Considering his flaws while he lived, the king at least shoudl be thankful to Ulfric for given the chance to die like a true Nord.

From what I remember, Wallace didn't kill those dudes until they literally abandoned him on the battlefield and got a bunch of people killed. They already gave him a lot trouble before that, but he tried to work with them.

that is true thats why i said the motives were different but he did kill his own countrymen. The people in the movie were in the pockets of England was takign bribes from the kingdom, and thye didnt attack because they were paid to abandonthr people on the battlefield for them to die, so in same sense u could say its almost the exact same way since the Empire jarls are takign moeny from the Empire to smooth over the whole treaty which was said by mutliple peoples int he game and they for that they have to let the Empire and the thalmor come in and kill and torture talos worshipping citizens. Main difference the jarls/nobles in the movies because of thier actions happened in one grisly battle were as the jarls in the game and the high king have let it go on for at the very least 15 years.

and the difference int he movie it was soldiers who paud the price, in the game its the civilians

You make a good point. I still don't see a good reason to lay it at the feet of Torryg though and punk him out like that. He didn't sign the White Gold Concordat. He didn't pay any Jarls (or did he?). From what I can tell, he was probably only a kid then. Back to the Braveheart example, he seems like the Bruce in that movie, who's dealing with the actions of his predecessors and his father, and hasn't found his own confidence then. Except, it sounds like he found at least some confidence to fight Ulfric. "I faced him fearlessly - my fate inescapable, yet my honor is unstained - can Ulfric say the same?"

eh i agree the only thign i can come up with is is that hes now the high king and just like every president/king before, if theirs problems going on the person in charge atm is responsible. Weither its right or wrong, that usually how it goes. From my standpoint the king didnt sound at all liek a bad guy whatsoever and sounded like had good personaility, but from a military/political standpoint i can see why it happened. When u put into the previous kings non-actions and then hea about Ulfric going gunho over bandits/giants or whatever disrupting or threatening the nord life i think is him trying to prove to the public that he will be a man of action and even the killing of the high king was a sign of action, basically trying o show the public that as leader he will protect and showing them thru his actions and fight to defend thier rights, where the previous king was bound by the contract to allow the injustice to his people. In that Ulfric saw a country that needed to break out from that treaty and he saw the king not strong enough to do so.

on another thread we determined the TRUE cause of this civil war:

Ulfric and Delphine were high school sweethearts. Then Elisif came into the picture, and Ulfric dumped Delphine for Elisif. But Elisif fell in love with Torygg. Out of jealousy, Ulfric shouted/stabbed Torygg. Then Tulius shows up, the corrupt police officer, to "comfort" Elisif, and so the civil war began.

/thread