There is no evidence Ulfric is racist. None at all.

There are Altmer in Windhelm, immigrants from Summerset Isle, who are nonetheless among the city's richest residents. Even the most outspoken Dunmer owns a tavern, and the others do high-paid work (the bard) and managerial work for the great families (Suvaris Atheron). In Riften, a Dunmer is entrusted to run the meadery; the Jarl has an elf as her steward and as her court mage. In Winterhold there is also an elven steward, and, of course, if they wanted to demolish that Shrine of Azura they easily could. But they don't. Or the Sacellum of Boethiah, for that matter. A lot of their Jarls take non-Nord advisors in towns that they capture, and nothing happens to the non-Nordic populations in their cities.

As for Ulfric refusing to commit troops to defend Dunmeri refugees, he also fails to retake Fort Amol, which was a key Stormcloak fort. It's more to do with resources than it is to do with racism. And, as far as their 'slum' is concerned, remember that Nords lived there before - was that racist, too? Most of the Dunmer in-game accept that all they need to do is work - the only one who thinks othewise is Ambarys, and he owns an inn. And a nice set of armour...

And a vast majority of nords in stormcloak territory have no problem with dunmer. 2 drunk nords does not a majority make.



The dunmer stopped worshipping the Tribunal almost 200 years ago, before they ever came to Skyrim. Ya know since they all disappeared. They reverted to ancestor and daedra worship.



There's plenty of evidence that the high council of the empire is corrupt and doesn't intend to do anything about the thalmor.(Why start a war and stop receiving all these wonderful bribes) And last I recall the legion doesn't make the decisions. The council picks the emperor.

I don't treat it like fact though because there's plenty of other conclusions you can draw. Same as the "racism" you keep seeing.

Ask around the holds. It's way more than two. Heck, some nords there have a problem with all non nords.


Yes, and? It's still a massive cultural and physical loss.


Untrue. There's evidence that some those who support the Empire in Skyrim are enjoying how profitable it is for them, but the Emperor himself seems to have the best interests of Skyrim at heart (although considering the context under which you meet him, that means little). In addition, Tulius, the generals dotted around Skyrim, the vast majority of Imperial supporters and even the Thalmor openly state that the WGC is a temporary measure. It will not hold. It was never designed to hold.

Did you do the Dark Brotherhood questline? It pretty much outright tells you what's going on in the Imperial City's court.

Titus Mede is doing something wrong when it comes to the Dominion. Either he is too anti-war, or too pro-war. Too the public, he is probably the former. He is probably different amongst the Council.

Either way, a [censored] storm that's not just the next war will hit the Empire soon. Don't be part of them when it happens, I feel. Or the exact opposite, and it gets better.

And conversation with people in Windhelm? What are you using as your "evidence" that Ulfric is racist?

It's about time that Cyrodiil learn to take care of its own and not depend on their provinces to come rushing to their aid, then using them as bargaining chips when their backs are against a wall. If they want an alliance with Skyrim, they can learn to build one as one free nation does with another. Their time of ruling everyone else is finished.

I would say, it alludes to suspicion and, well, general politics which, sure, might lead to disolution but could also lead to complete revival al la Augustus Caesar... but I don't feel as though the races of man are will fare better against the Thalmor as divided as they would be if Skyrim won independence.


Would any treaty or alliance with Ulfric be forgiving in the wake of a bloody and devastating civil war? Ulfric will not help Cyrodiil. Hammerfell would be unlikely to help either. I'm not saying that there's no reason for the mistrust, but it would make Cyrodiil far easier to destroy and that's not something the Imperial people deserve and it is not, in any way, good for mankind.

Why wouldn't Hammerfell not support an independent Skyrim against the Thalmor? Both hate Thalmor with a passion, both went against the Empire, and both have mighty warriors. Hammerfell is more likely to help an independent Skyrim than the Empire who abandoned them. With High Rock isolated and its kings being political rivals, it would seem likely that High Rock would secede under those conditions. As a result, the Bretons are likely to help Hammerfell, Skyrim, and solitary Cyrodiil since the Bretons don't want to be killed.

As for Cyrodiil being weakened, I think an independent Skyrim would help Cyrodiil itself build its strength. True the Empire may collapse, but that means Cyrodiil can build up its own army instead of relying on others since relying on another nation to build your army never ends well. In addition, do you really think that just because if the Empire wins in Skyrim that there won't be other problems? Nords could form a sort of resistance ala the IRA or something similar to continue fighting the Empire. That could mean there could be a second Stormcloak uprising who can be more inspired since they view Ulfric as a martyr. Hence, the Empire has to resort more resources to maintaining peace since most Imperial supporting Jarls only tolerate them and others like Maven Black Briar and Idgrod Raven-Crone are Thalmor bribed which means they could be influenced to assist the Thalmor which could prove damaging if fighting in Skyrim occurs.

The Stormcloaks are racist. Skyrim for Nords, etc. You just have to talk to or listen to npcs to hear the truth. Ulfric does'nt give a damn about the people. He is clearly doing it for power and the rebels cause is merely a useful stepping stone and excuse the claim to power. He is a nasty, arrogant man.

Some nords don't even want or like them.

The empire is'nt perfect. But it's aim is good. Skyrim was always in the empire. Whatever their other goals, peace will ensue from their victory and their goal is stability. Not for completely altruistic reasons but the end result would be the same.
And as far as I know, it was'nt the nords who fought the Altmeri Dominion and survived previously. It was the empire.
They ar'nt racist at all. They accept everyone.

Hadvor seems a nice guy at the start. Genuinely a nice person. Rolaf is ok too.

Siding with the empire makes more sense than the stormcloaks.

I was talking about Hammerfell helping Cyrodiil, not Skyrim. Sorry for not making that clearer. However, most nords seem to be mistrustful of the redguard armies (and their curved swords) too.

Ultimately what would stop Skyrim and Hammerfell sending aid beyond their own borders would be their respective domestic strengths. Hammerfell is still fighting various Thalmor agents from within and is still recovering from a war that was drawn out even longer than the Empire's clash with the Dominion. Skyrim, after the Stormcloak rebellion, has lost legions of young soldiers and frontline healers and Ulfric's priorities are unquestionably tied up in Skyrim's recovery. Sending redguards to Skyrim weakens Hammerfell, sending nords to Hammerfell weakens Skyrim. At present, neither can afford to be any weaker than they are.

An independent Skyrim under Ulfric Stormcloak has no motivation for aiding the Empire. Ulfric respects his own ideas of what a fighting force should be and no longer feels as though the Imperial army fulfills those expectations. He does not respect the Imperial generals and I can't see Ulfric agreeing to take orders from them in any capacity. If he was on Cyrodiilic soil, he would still expect to lead his men while Cyrodiil would much, much rather use the army that defeated them as a buffer, don't you think? I can't see any way an alliance of equals would work.

They got kicked out of Whiterun for causing trouble, not for being Redguards. If that's not what you're talking about, what makes you think they distrust the Redguards?

And if the Empire wins in Skyrim, Hammerfell gets no support for sure. And the Empire would help Skyrim recover, true, but would still be focused on itself. That is the biggest problem with Empires. Cyrodiil first, the provinces second. Just like for Ulfric, Skyrim first, Tamriel second. Markarth's silver goes to who controls Markarth. If Skyrim were to be invaded (unless they went by sea, that would be difficult) would the Empire risk leaving their border undefended? Or would they use the weakened Legion that defeated Ulfric to defend Skyrim and leave the rest at the Dominion-Empire border? Then again, I can't see the Dominion just attacking Skyrim, because Cyrodiil would just attack Valenwood.

If the Dominion invades Cyrodiil at the same time, would Skyrim matter to them beyond Legionarres? If the Forsworn aren't gone, Markarth's Nord population will be. The Imperial City would be the most important thing to defend, not Skyrim.

Cyrodiil was the main target of the Thalmor, not Skyrim or Hammerfell. And it probably still is. Strategically, whoever controls it has a foothold from which they can march into almost every other province. Metaphysically, it's the center of the wheel. Politically, it's the center of the largest non-Dominion faction in Tamriel.

Skyrim has the advantage of the fact that it's got Cyrodiil sitting between it and the Dominion. It's highly unlikely that the Thalmor would be able to invade Skyrim without first going through Cyrodiil (which similarly wouldn't get any support if Ulfric wins).

As for Hammerfell, it's a pretty moot point because the possibility of Ulfric allying with them is pure speculation at best. At least there's mention of the Empire needing to reconcile with them.

No, it was Hammerfell. What fought Cyrodiil was a distraction. Cyrodiil lost to the Thalmor's distraction army.

As is Ulfric not helping Cyrodiil.

Do you really picture a large Nord army helping Cyrodiil even if the empire wins? Not likely. The empire has burned all its bridges flailing around to save itself. They made their own bed, first of all by ignoring warnings about the Dominion until one province after another started to turn.

I think the only way any resistance works is an alliance of equals.

No, Hammerfell was the distraction. Hence why the bulk of the Thalmor's army was sent to Cyrodiil. And why when the bulk of their army in Cyrodiil was destroyed, they didn't have enough left to hold on to Hammerfell even after it was no longer part of the Empire.


Nobody except the Blades listened to the warnings about the Dominion. Including the Nords and Redguards or anyone else.

Edit: And if abandoning Hammerfell was so heinous, then how is abandoning Cyrodiil for the actions of a few men any less heinous?

It's the way various NPCs talk about redguard culture. The curved sword comment is amusing, but it shows how out of touch nords are with the redguards. Distrust might be the wrong word. Still, I do think Ulfric would have a degree of respect for the stalemate the redguards managed to achieve against the Thalmor, but as I mentioned before, I just don't believe he could afford to spare any men to defend Hammerfell. Valenwood and Summerset Isle have an immensely strong naval presence and might well take advantage of that fact.

The Empire might 'focus' on Cyrodiil but they would not neglect to rebuild Skyrim as a strong nordic force is beneficial to the Empire. Conversely, a Stormcloak victory would do absolutely nothing for Cyrodiil (or High Rock) and while Skryim might fare better than Cyrodiil in the short-term (in part due to its geography), with the realms of men divided, the Thalmor can turn their attention to whichever province they like, without the looming threat of cross-provincial reinforcements jumping in to defend anything.


And this is why there will be no alliance.

Ultimately, the Thalmor will win unless something unprecidented (Daedric involvement, Akaviri entering the battlefields, a domestic resistance within the Dominion etc.) happens. Since Ulfric and Tulius can prevail, we know that something must come to shake things up in order to validate all those who played, rather than just those on one side. The most logical option is the Thalmor, since they're a known powerful presence we can only deal with on a limited scale in the game itself.

Besides Thalmor domination provides the background for a much more interesting story than an alliance. Ah, I'm getting off topic a little. Too meta xDD

It appears now that the initial Aldmeri objective was in fact the conquest of Hammerfell, and that the invasion of Cyrodiil was intended only to pin down the Imperial legions while Hammerfell was overrun. However, the surprising initial success of Lord Naarifin's attack led the Thalmor to believe that the Empire was weaker than they had thought. The capture of the Imperial City itself and the complete overthrow of the Empire thus became their primary objective of the next two years. As we know, the Thalmor nearly achieved their objective. It was only because our Emperor's determined leadership during the Empire's darkest hour that this disaster was averted. - The Great War.

Edit: Fine. Hammerfell was the orginal goal. Cyrodiil only later became the prime goal.


Everyone is out of touch with everyone, since information travels slowly. Unless your a scholar on Redguard culture, you probably won't know that much.

Because those "few men" are in charge.

Then why we arguing?

I'd just blow up both. I'd make the Fourth Era like the Second, applying to Summerset this time as well. Those elves need some good ol' chaos in their politics.

I'd like to see this: Tosh Raka invades, sets fire to everything, leaves! xDD

I personally believe that if the Empire could hold together for just a little longer, there would be a chance of victory. A chance I don't feel the independent nations of man have. I guess it's more a hope than a belief though, since, well, I said it all in my prior post. I don't want Nirn destroyed...

I will also say, it's nice to debate with someone who has interesting points to share rather than insults. =D

[First, wow.... this thread is still going? Energizer Bunny time....]


I tend to think the "nations of man" might do better than you think.... throughout history, regimented troops have done poorly against guerilla warfare. And that's what the Thalmor would be facing.... Without the Empire, the independent "disorganized" human nations would be forced to return to guerilla-type action. Now, that sounds bad.... until you think about the fact that EVERY FARMER is probably a guerilla. EVERY BARMAID. The Thalmor wouldn't have "troop movements" to track.... because the troops are just people.... until they have a chance to strike - and once done, they turn into "normal" people again.

Of course, the Thalmor, being the nihilists they are, would probably just wipe out everyone whether they were non-combatant in fact as well as in theory. But that's a whole other mess.

Hmm. What happens if the Thalmor go to bed with the Dragons?

So let me get this straight: everyone in Cyrodiil deserves to suffer because their non-elected leader banned Talos and kicked a province that the Stormcloaks don't care about out of the Empire (which ironically benefited Skyrim, Hammerfell, and High Rock, possibly because it was done out of pragmatism and for the greater good as opposed to simple revenge).

But if he invades, that'd mean that the Tsaeci nation is no more. I'm hoping a new generation of Dragonguard will show up, having remembered the prophecy of the Last Dragonborn. Plus their weaponry and armor puts both the Imperials and Stormcloaks to shame (in my opinion at least).

Tosh Raka would side with the Dominion. Same goal, and what not.

Nah, the Thalmor don't view the beast races as much of anything and Tosh Raka has already ascended. He'd nom those Thalmor. After all, he does want to invade Tamriel, just after he conquers the snake folk.

make me mad I join the Imperial because I don't like the Thalmor but to tell you the truth I didn't care for either side.

problem is, the Thalmor fought a guerilla/spy war with the Blades, and the Blades lost hideously. The Thalmor are, as indicated in lore, damn good at unconventional warfare.

this discussion about racist/not racist tendencies is pointless. The whole problem is the Tamriel we see in the games is a mere FRACTION, a small representation of the actual continent and its people. The size of the provinces and the populations are far too small to come to any concensus about racist tendencies or stereotypes. You simply don't have a population large enough to even study.

EDIT: also, woot! 300th comment! /end thread now please? Pretty sure we hit post limit 100 comments ago, unless beth wants to leave this open so we post all our "imperial v stormcloak" crap here instead of spamming the forums.