you make a good point. HOWEVER:

Ulfric is Jarl of Eastmarch. He's the man in charge of the Hold, and responsible for the continued management of the daily life of the hold. Whether or not the Dunmer help him, it can be argued that, because of his position, he has a duty to look after ALL citizens of Eastmarch equally. A good ruler doesn't carry apathy to any of his citizens.

However, I don't feel this is the case, as it has been said the war has stretched Stormcloak security thin.

Not in a feudal system. You support your Jarl and he will support you. Even dragonborn cant buy a house until he contributes. Is it any different in any city in Skyrim?

No, the nords in Windhelm did not reach out other than to make demands of the dunmer. There is nothing right about threatening to assault dunmer in their beds (read into that what you will) simply for refusing to die for a cause they have no reason to believe in. Talos is not their god and Talos's people are threatening them.

The Empire is not asking 'everyone else' to pay for their mistakes because until recently the Empire was everywhere else. They did not want to give up their land or their gods and as you point out, the Empire did not completely abandon Hammerfell. You mention one general, but the sacrifice was more than that as it was accepted and permitted. Let's not forget that Hammerfell was, at this point, fighting a weakened Thalmor, with tired armies who were ready to withdraw under the WGC. Perhaps the Empire as a whole could have held out longer, perhaps not, but that's done now and it's not something the player can change.

If High Rock rebelled... well, they would at least get to choose their own fate regarding the Empire but ultimately, my reaction would depend on their reasons, their attitude towards potential allies and any procautions they might choose to take against the Thalmor.

And yes, a newer, stronger Empire is rising. Unfortunately, it is headed by the Thalmor.


Yes. In most cities, the Jarls talk about protecting and serving their people. There are exceptions but generally, those exceptions are highlighted as corrupt (Silver-Blood, Black-Briar).

note that i said that said general DISOBEYED the empire when it left the invalids, so yes Empire did abandon Hammerfell as a whole. Also the peopel he left behind became invalids meaning they are no longer part of the Empire which i forsee as a grp of people who were very angry over the order and basically stayed and became invalids to longer be part of the Empire, lost thier citizenship, so that they can continue to fight the enemy.

That is what every Nord was expectign of the Empire, to fight even if thye lost it all to keep fighting like those men and women did. THOSE heros were true Empire, and they had to lose/abandon thier citizenship/home/etc to keep fighting. The whoel of the Empire is nothing like that, but they were fighting the "true Nord way" even if they werent nords, its an expression on how a man/woman acts honorably and for the All or Nothing. They represented the way of the Old Empire but sadly to do that they had to leave/abandon the Empire to do hat they need to do and act like they did.

You misunderstand: writing those troops off as invalids does not absolve them of their Imperial citizenship, it forfeits them as Imperial property and should they eventually wish to return to Empire lands, they would face no real resistance. Proclaiming them invalids and casualties of war simply allowed them to stay and continue the fight against the Thalmor without the threat of a court martial or anything similar. It was a loophole the general used in order to avoid personal persectution and though the Empire would have been well within their legal rights to press the issue, they chose not to. The Empire did not abandon Hammerfell completely, although, yes, they did try to sell Hammerfell out.

Skyrim is a part of the Empire. Until Ulfric defeats Tulius, the nords are a part of the Empire. and not all nords believe that the Old Ways were any better than Imperial Law. Many are totally against Ulfric's rebellion. Ulfric's beliefs are Ulfric's, not Skyrim's, in fact, the only belief the Stormcloaks are universally united on is the issue of Talos and many people who declare support for Ulfric are absolutly not prepared to pick up a sword and fight until death.

All or Nothing is not honourable, practical or desirable when dealing with an enemy like the Thalmor.

You're holding all Nords responsible for two drunks with a chip on their shoulders?

That's the thing. The Dunmer in Windhelm are not Ulfric's people, not in the same way that others are. This is not based on racism but on an agreement made centuries before that was to allow the Dunmer refuge with autonomy.

Had Decianus not disobeyed orders, those troops would have been obligated to either march to the Imperial City or mutiny in order to stay and fight for Hammerfell. So yes, the empire did abandon Hammerfell. It was Decianus who didn't. He either had more compassion and common sense than the emperor, or he knew he'd get a curved sword to the throat if he tried to force them to leave.

And many are for. Ulfric himself wasnt even for rebellion when the contract was made, it was AFTER he was betrayed by the Empire for not holding up thier end of the Bargain and was sent to jail whiel the Empire keep the city, it was after 10 years in jail and he escaped and went to his home that he became a Jarl and then went on to challenge the High King. there are just the same amount of people in Skyrim that are for the old ways as there is for the Empire, but the MAJORITY of the population dont care who wins, its breed into them to uphold the traditions and whoever is the winnder the majority who did not particapate or cared will follow whoever. as far as the rebellion, yes there are alot of people who are against it, but u also have to say that there are many citizens who are for it and u cant dicount them also since thye are also part of the body of Skyrim.

Also we dont have any information on the soldiers that went to hammerfell, with the thalmor in the top office and part of the intel of the Empire id say that they will face reprecussion for coming back seeing how thye did fight the Thalmor AFTER the 'peace treaty" was signed. So far the thalmor seems to be on top of the intel and on getting peopel they want, so yes those people who became invalids did give up thier place in the Empire and did not have a garuntee that they would be able to come back peacefully without hiding. Yes the general pronouced them invalids so they could continue the fight without the fear of the Empire reprecusions on them. That can be taken both ways as in the empire COULD welcome them back with open arms but liek i said thalmor being a mjor part of the empire political and intel circuit i find it hard to believe, OR the are free from the Empire coming after them so they are not considered deserters to continue the fight. Until we have eidence of the hammerfell living peacefully back i the empire thats up in the air.

oh and also listen to Ulfric, count how many times that he is fighting for a free Skyrim from the hands of the WEAK empire that cant protect its citizens to the time he says he is fighting so that Talos can be reinstated. Listen to the words fro his own mouth...

autonomy, yes. At least at the start. I'm not sure if their all that autonomous any more. After all, they do pay taxes.

man i gotta say i laughed when i read ur signature, thats good lol

No. I'm holding Ulfric responsible for the sorry state of his hold. The dunmer and argonians are an issue, the refusal to help non-nords raided by bandits is another, the willful disgregard for a serial killing spree, and another murder before that and the attitudes of many nords towards the dunmer and argonians.


There's a lot of evidence to suggest (though not prove) that Ulfric himself is a racist but regardless, as he is apathetic towards the plight of the dunmer, argonians and other non-nords. He is very, very much about Syrim being for the nords. That much is undeniable.

As for the autonomy, that agreement was made so long ago that renegotiation would be in the best interest of all the peoples of Windhelm.

Glad you think so lol. I'd been trying to think of a clever and funny sig, and finally came to this last night.

There's a lot of evidence to suggest (though not prove) that the empire has no intention of ever throwing off the thalmor shackles. They are very very much about the empire being for cyrodiil. That much is undeniable.

the reason is that his army is made up of considerably of Nords, so he honors his agreement to protect them by goign all gunho whenever soemthing liek that shows up. The dunmer want no part of the war or to help him, the khajits are pretty much thalmor servents/drug peddlers in everyone eyes and argoniand hate the dunmer to kill them.

Apparently at least the business people do.

All I'm saying is that there is another way to look at the "ghetto." I would compare it to the http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi arrangement of the Ottoman Empire. That can either be looked at negatively, as a way to exploit people (and it's different because Ottoman minorities actually had higher tax rates than others, sometimes much higher- whereas Sadri's taxes are only raised if he's suspected of bartering stolen goods), but it can also be looked at as a way to give minorities protected status so that they don't have to change their culture or religion to blend in with the majority. In practice it doesn't work out so well, but the idea is not all bad.

And Ulfric does... that's right! Nothing that doesn't further Ulfric himself.

And do you judge the other jarls as harshly for the problems in thier holds?

Do you hold all Dunmer responsible for the xenophobic ones?

I mean, this is the Dunmer we're talking about. Hopefully that irony doesn't escape you.

There's some hearsay. Not evidence. And sure he is about Skyrim being for the Nords- being run by Nords. Both he and Galmar say that Skyrim is home also to non-Nords, however. The Altmer in his city are doing pretty well. That is the race of people who tortured him. If he really was racist, don't you think they'd be the prime targets?

That may be true, but he's got a few other things to worry about first- like saving Skyrim and humanity. Just the little things. LOL

Past prejudice doesn't justify prejudice. Besides, most of the dunmer alive at the time of Morrowind are now dead and the majority of the dunmer you meet in Skyrim have adjusted to life outside of their homeland. Few display any racist attitudes. Losing your gods, homeland and livelihoods might tend to humble you a little.


The altmer in his city are not doing well, with the exception of one. The other is there under duress and at the behest of a racist band of thieves. As for their being 'no evidence', there most certainly is. It simply can't be proven as hearsay or fact. Personally, I do think Ulfric harbours certain prejudices, but I don't believe he is as outwardly racist as some of his people. However, it's clear to see that he's apathetic towards other cultures and that his cause is tempered by his selfish and poetic streak.


Ulfric doesn't care about humanity unless the humans in question are nords and conform to nordic values. He doesn't know the true extent of the Thalmor's desires and he doesn't care. He cares about his religious freedom and the old traditions of Skyrim, which many nords see as inhibiting and outdated. He would not support Cyrodiil against the Thalmor. He might fight in Cyrodiil against the Thalmor but I don't see either side, or the redguards, being willing to submit their leadership and follow the orders of another general.

Yes they do display racist attitudes. A Dunmer farm worker in Windhelm says his family looks down on him and his sister for working for Nords, for example. There's an http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Dunmer_of_Skyrim where some Dunmer writer is fantasizing that they're going to displace Nords and their culture entirely. Now this is where you tell me they're so oppressed that they can't help themselves.

What is this about losing gods, anyway? They were allowed to build a huge shrine to Azura.

They are all property owners and express no particular dissatisfaction with their lot. Niranye even looks down on the Dunmer.
*sigh* No, there isn't evidence. By this I mean things from Ulfric's own lips or his actions. The note in his quarters about his secret plans to purge Skyrim of all non-Nords. I'm still waiting to see it.

He says "Skyrim will lead all Tamriel against the Thalmor." Doesn't care about the Thalmor?! Holy nine divines....

Maybe I should start dozens of topics about how Elisif doesn't care about humanity because she and her plethora of advisors are negligent about something that could have caused a major cosmic disaster.

(not getting in this argument anymore)

Ulfric himself says he is sorry that the dunmer are having a hard time, but that he has more important issues to worry about at the moment.

And while half of Skyrim is for Ulfric that does not mean the other half are pro imperials. Most of those are also anti-imperial, but just not anti-imperial enough that they think its worth going to war.

This post never existed.

So you have a book... and nothing else really. The dunmer you meet in the game are no where near as prejudiced as some of the nords you encounter. Their parents, ancestors and other unseen members of the race might harbour resentments but the vast majority of dunmer in Skyrim are just getting on with their lives.


Tribunal.


Evidence =//= proof. If Ulfric himself spoke out against the 'dunmer scum' or what have you, that would be proof. Evidence is something that suggests an idea. It is indicative, not conclusive. There is a lot of evidence that Ulfric and many of Ulfrics supporters are racists. In Ulfric's case there is no proof. However, there is proof to show that Ulfric is a negligent Jarl.


Where did I say he doesn't care about the Thalmor? Please stop twisting my words. I said that Ulfric and his supporters would not aid Cyrodiil in fending of the Thalmor. Part of that is the leadership issue you so nicely highlighted with that quote. Do you think a defeated empire would allow Ulfric Stormcloak to lead them into battle? That's about as likely as Ulfric obeying the whims of the Emporer and his generals. Beyond that, there's the already discussed resentment of their peoples due to the spectacular loss of life war causes. A Stromcloak victory does exactly what the Thalmor expect and want it to do - it divides the races of man.

Actually the thalmor themselves have said they dont want a stormcloak victory.

They would prefer it to an Imperial victory. Ideally, the Thalmor would like to see the war dragged out, but they do believe Ulfric's cause furthers their own.