Oops, I forgot. The Razor Hole is another armorer, not a bar.
They could have easily consolidated those quests into a smaller location if they wanted to. It's not as if each shop was bustling with potential quests. Many of no associated quest at all. No, the city was designed around the idea that there would logically be multiple watering holes and merchants, even if the provide the same types of items, and that there would be divisions between different factions and interests. The quests then revolved around these interests and their interactions/conflicts with each other.

Skyrim on the other hand seems to follow a checklist system. Bar? Check. Smithy? Check. Jarl Longhouse? Check. It's boring because it's so formulaic. Very few cities in Skyrim feel like natural and organic entities.

Balmora was scaled down and had many of it's buildings removed. What makes people think that this isn't the case with Skyrim?

My opinion is still that Skyrim is the BEST single-player game ever made.

I mean book books, like... for lack of a better example "the lusty argonian made" or what ever it's called, not tomes, books.

Balmora has over 40 buildings. Whiterun, effectively Skyrim's Balmora, has 23. Even if they had to make cuts, they were already far under a respectable number.

Yeah, But I have yet to find a key to get in to them.

Actually, IMO Whiterun should compare W/Vivec, not Balmora. Solitude or Markarth should compare W/Balmora. But your point is still valid of course...

Whiterun is more like Balmora in the sense that it's likely the first major town the player will come across and it's where the main quest first kicks off. This means it's probable that Whiterun will serve as the player's home base, likely hold the first house they'll own, and where they'll begin their first quests.

I don't really see a Vivec equivalent in Skyrim. There isn't any really massive city (I don't think any Skyrim city breaks 30 buildings), and Vivec served more as a location for "endgame" quests. Vivec is where you found most faction leaders, and so it is there that you received the most challenging jobs. Due to Skyrim's guild structure, you never really "graduate" to a different branch. Everything is assigned from a single location.

True, but what is the point of even that tavern? All of them pretty much are completely empty apart from a solitatry bard. I wish they hadn't destroyed Winterhold. Having a huge city would have been so much better and would have meant world wouldn't feel as empty. It really does feel like it's missing it's capital, which is exactly what Winterhold used to be.

To me the tavern is there simply so they have somewhere outside of the college itself. Basically as a simple plot device location.

You have the wrong expectations for Skyrim- it's not the center of the empire like the Imperial City. That land is much more hospitable, so people can spread out more around their cities, giving you the impression that they're bigger even when they're about the same size. Book shops? Who is reading and buying those books? Skyrim is the harsh, unforgiving land of the Nords. Most children learn their skills from their parents, and the only truly educated people are in the Jarl's household. Plus, in case you've forgotten, there's been a war raging for a few years now. People have moved away or moved into town, behind strong walls. Over the years, even other races have fled Skyrim due to the conflict and xenophobia. This is not a welcoming climate for trade or business right now. Even among the Nords, people are suspicious of their own neighbors. You never know who is a Stormcloak and who secretly supports the Empire.

And for a magic fearing folk like this lot, who the heck thinks they'd rebuild the town that collapsed in front of a magic college? Are you serious? The few stubborn ones at what's left of town are probably the only ones brave enough to get that close to the cursed thing. You have to remember, they think it was the mages who destroyed their town. Who in their right mind would remain?

Yes i agree it was brilliant, something foreign to Skyrim.

Makes sense that they would've had to have made cuts, if you ask me.

Every early night most of them fill up with patrons - similar to what happens at real taverns except real ones close. You just stuck your foot in your mouth. Go back to school - I mean Skyrim.

I'm not saying cuts couldn't have happened. I'm saying that even if they were to implement the city without those cuts, it would still be too small. I mean, are you really suggesting that they cut 50 percent of Whiterun's content?

What is it with people on these forums lately? You're the third person today to assume I've suggested something I haven't. No, I'm not suggesting they've cut 50% of Whiteruns content. It would be wrong of me to even hazard a guess at how much content has been cut because what I know about Whiterun comes from the game itself.

Perhaps there is a misunderstanding because you're failing to understand my point. I'm saying that the towns are too small. You then stated that Beth had to cut some corners. Then I said that even if they didn't have to cut corners, the city would still be too small. So if you didn't mean to imply that Whiterun would have been sizable without those cuts, then how was your comment relevant to the point I was making?

I already addressed the other argument comment earlier. It's absurd to suggest that since Skyrim is frontier land, made up by settlements instead of cities, that the cities that do exist should be tiny. I mean, settlements are larger than the cities in Skyrim.

Yes the cities are too small, but then this is a game designed for the small brains of consoles, and those who play them, not the ever increasing power of gaming PCs. I fully intend to mod my cities up to what my computer can handle.

On the lore side, I don't think a book shop in Solitude is out of the question, as that is the seat of the ruler of Skyrim and therefore host to the highest court, attracting well to do visitors, otherwise why on earth would it have a dedicated clothes shop? It is also the more Imperial of the Skyrim cities. Also, presumably in the past the Mages Guild and Fighters Guild had premises in the main cities, so what happened to them? I seriously doubt the populace would have knocked down serviceable buildings...

You brought up Balmora, therefore opening up for my comment about cuts being made. The point I was trying to make was that how a city or town is represented in a game isn't necessarily exactly how it appears according to lore. I am not failing to understand your point at all. Yes, I get it, the towns are small.

And fyi, the term settlement doesn't relate to size so settlements are both larger AND smaller than those in Skyrim. If you pitch a tent and live there permanently, it is technically a settlement. Think of the largest city in the world... that's right, another settlement. A settlement is somewhere people take up permanent residence or settle down, if you will.

Then I question the relevance. Obviously the towns will be smaller in a video game than those described on paper. But that's because it'd be technologically impossible to design a city of real world size under the time constraints of a TES game and still manage to design and populate the rest of the game world.

The reason I brought up Balmora was to illustrate that Bethesda is capable of designing significantly larger cities within a similar time frame. The problem with Skyrim is a design and priority problem, not a technological one.
Don't be disingenuous. The word "settlements" was used in contrast to the word "cities" specifically to distinguish between large towns and small ones.

You brought up Balmora, my comment was about Balmora and it's size so therefore very relevent.

It is clear that you are not taking into account the distinct differences in graphics quality between Morrowind and Skyrim. Balmora is easily twice the size Solitude in game but they would've had to cut it down further to make it workable in the game if Morrowind's graphics were on par with Skyrim.


How am I being disingenuous? Your words were "settlements are larger than the cities in Skyrim." YOU used it as a comparison of size.

And you're forgetting they're designed for different hardware.

That may be so, but my original point is still valid; how a town/city/settlement/village/homestead/farm/etc. appears in a game does not necessarily reflect how it appears according to lore.

I must admit, though, I've temporarily lost sight of why that was so important.

You didn't comment on Balmora's size, you said they had to make cuts in the case of Balmora just as they made cuts in the case of Whiterun. What you were talking about was cut content, not existing content. The existing content is quite clear: Balmora is twice as large as Whiterun. So again, how is cut content relevant when discussing the actual size of a settlement?

On the second point, what Mit said. Further, if they can't get an adequate world size to function with the level of visuals they want, then the visuals should be tuned down, content should not be removed. I mean, 90 percent of the visual improvement is just better art direction anyways. It's not like it'd be a step back from Oblivion or anything.
Dude, reread your posts. You quoted Cicero who said, "If you read some of the in game books its clearly explained that these "cities" are most "settlements" -due to the nord's climate harshness." Cicero clearly means that "cities" are large and "settlements" are small. I responded to this, using the same meanings Cicero was using. Then you fire back, "Just so you know, but cities are settlements." Well, not in the context of the discussion we were apparently having.

If you didn't want to use the definition of settlement Cicero was using you shouldn't have quoted them.
Which literally no one has ever disputed. That's why I questioned it's relevance in regards to whether the video game towns were large enough or not.

It would be nice if they gave things a bit more purpose.