"It's impossible to do first-person direct-action combat

Post » Tue May 15, 2012 2:22 am

People need to understand that MMORPGs and single player RPGs are two very different beasts. Yes, Darkfall Online had first person twitch-based for ranged combat and Mortal Online had first person real-time combat. However, we have to keep in mind these were niche indie MMOs created to try and appeal to a different audience from the mainstream MMO audience. That being said, AAA MMOs all basically follow the same principles: third person combat, auto-target, tool bar, class system, level cap, etc.

Real time combat is not a niche or an indie idea, it's just that the developers who made those MMO games were indie, hence the products were never going to be a huge success. If a AAA developer actually did a polished job of it in an MMO, it would benefit everyone. Skyrim was the best selling game on Steam of all time at launch, and one of the biggest games ever. COD and Battlefield sell dozens of millions to all sorts of casual and hardcoe gamers, relying on an infinitely faster "twitch" system of combat with up to 64 players in a single game. And it's not as if MMO gamers and non-MMO gamers are a different species - in fact, the distinction in completely non-existant. Everyone I've ever known to play MMOs also played regular games, and virtually all of them love Elder Scrolls. For certain, they don't boot up a game with a reticule aimer and go "damn, this click-to-attack is so difficult." If there are more than a hundred people who think like that on the entire planet, I'll eat my shoe.

MMOs and single player games started as "different beasts" because of technology, but increasingly that's become irrelevant. And yet this weird mentality persists that an entire genre of game has to play exactly the same based nothing but the fact of it being online - and it's led to this misconception that if you implement any different features, MMO gamers' heads would explode when faced with the 20 minute learning curve of point-mouse-and-click - or at least, for those few dozen people on Earth who play games but have never played a shooter or any other real-time game before.

And again, if Elder Scrolls is such a big title, why would we honestly fear implementing the exact same gameplay that millions of people already recognize from that title? It's like saying, "Hey, let's make a TES game, but the market might not like the medieval fantasy setting (even though people play games like this all the time), so let's make it a 21st-century corporate drama in which you play a lawyer voiced by and modeled on the actor Steve Buscemi."
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Eire Charlotta
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 6:02 pm

People need to understand that MMORPGs and single player RPGs are two very different beasts. Yes, Darkfall Online had first person twitch-based for ranged combat and Mortal Online had first person real-time combat. However, we have to keep in mind these were niche indie MMOs created to try and appeal to a different audience from the mainstream MMO audience. That being said, AAA MMOs all basically follow the same principles: third person combat, auto-target, tool bar, class system, level cap, etc.

I personally played Darkfall Online for quite some time and while some of the ideas were a nice change from the standard MMO formula, the game was ridiculously unbalanced in regards to the skill progression system similar to TES games, twitch-based combat all depended on ones latency, and combat degenerated into a bunny-hopping zerg fest with everyone spamming AOE spells to try and kill everyone in the area. The game is virtually impossible to play unless you started playing the day it came out and joined a strong guild with stable alliance ties. So in theory, yeah, Skyrim transformed into an MMO sounds great, but in practice it would be an absolute nightmare.

When ZeniMax Online says first and foremost they wanted to make an enjoyable game, they were being serious. If they could make a game that retained more traits of what players consider to be TES, they would. Beyond anything else though, players like balance, fair and exciting combat, and in the case of MMOs team-oriented builds that lead to dynamic group makeups. AAA MMOs are the way they are today because they work. That being said, ESO is not just another "WoW Clone" and is taking steps to separate itself from the norm by making combat more dynamic, having a dynamic 3-faction conflict, a lesser focus on the holy trinity, and overall an experience that feels like TES, but within an MMO space.

I think it's just best if everyone takes a step back and truly consider what a TES game actually is. Regardless of whatever your first TES game, whether it was Arena or Skyrim, the core factor that makes a TES game is being able to go wherever you want and do whatever you want. This is the fundamental core of the franchise and ESO will retain that feature just as any previous TES game has. BGS has done a fantastic job of creating a single player TES experience everyone has grown to love and cherish for the past 18 years. Now lets give ZeniMax their chance to make the online TES experience players have been asking for. It will be different, but just because of that doesn't mean it will be any lesser than the other games. Give it a chance and let them release it first before you judge.
Great post. :goodjob:
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Alexxxxxx
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 9:19 pm

I think we will see all the major cities that were shown in MW OB and skyrim (maybe even some of the older TES which i know nothing about) maybe some villages or towns won't be there but its 1000 years before skyrim so maybe they did not exist then....
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Max Van Morrison
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 3:10 pm

i want balmora
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pinar
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 1:36 am

i want balmora

who doesn't XD
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Marnesia Steele
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 6:53 pm

People need to understand that MMORPGs and single player RPGs are two very different beasts. Yes, Darkfall Online had first person twitch-based for ranged combat and Mortal Online had first person real-time combat. However, we have to keep in mind these were niche indie MMOs created to try and appeal to a different audience from the mainstream MMO audience. That being said, AAA MMOs all basically follow the same principles: third person combat, auto-target, tool bar, class system, level cap, etc.

I personally played Darkfall Online for quite some time and while some of the ideas were a nice change from the standard MMO formula, the game was ridiculously unbalanced in regards to the skill progression system similar to TES games, twitch-based combat all depended on ones latency, and combat degenerated into a bunny-hopping zerg fest with everyone spamming AOE spells to try and kill everyone in the area. The game is virtually impossible to play unless you started playing the day it came out and joined a strong guild with stable alliance ties. So in theory, yeah, Skyrim transformed into an MMO sounds great, but in practice it would be an absolute nightmare.
Third person combat is not a principle; it is a practice. Its existing proves nothing except that someone chose to do it that way. It does not, as you imply, demonstrate third person as the natural outflowing of the will of the mainstream. Bethesda chose to make Fallout 3 a first-person experience because that is how they know best how to make games and it is their preference. If you hire people experienced in developing the most successful MMOs, then you are probably hiring people experienced in making third person work well. Their minds will be third-person oriented just because that is how they were raised. Third person is where their confidence lies. Even if there were no technical issues with first person, those developers would be inclined toward third person.

Using Darkfall Online as an explanation of why first person wouldn't work is bad practice. At best, all you show is that Darkfall Online is poorly balanced. You are not saying anything about any other game, let alone any other possible game. Balance is a problem faced by any game, any MMO. Balance problems are not limited to first-person twitch games, so you should not be presenting them as though they are. There have been some popular, nicely-balanced, multiplayer, first-person ttwitch games -- just not MMOs yet (as far as I know).
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Rach B
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 12:39 am

Using Darkfall Online as an explanation of why first person wouldn't work is bad practice. At best, all you show is that Darkfall Online is poorly balanced. You are not saying anything about any other game, let alone any other possible game. Balance is a problem faced by any game, any MMO. Balance problems are not limited to first-person twitch games, so you should not be presenting them as though they are. There have been some popular, nicely-balanced, multiplayer, first-person ttwitch games -- just not MMOs yet (as far as I know).

Indeed, the idea that an underfunded (and usually under-experienced) 20-50 man team can put together a game with enough balanced content for millions of players to each play for hundreds of hours is absurd. Indie MMOs fail because the content/funding ratio is absurdly lop-sided, they have no established IP or team and they get very limited media exposure. A game with second-rate artists and writers, a small team and very little money to spend on state-of-the-art technology is never going to create a smashing success in the MMO world, and is not a way to judge the success or failure of a game mechanic.
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bonita mathews
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 2:01 am

You again don't pay attention.

I have not complained about people who find flaws in Skyrim. I have complained about the disrespectful attitude people portray on these forums, of belittling those that do like Skyrim and TES:O for what they are, and don't find the same faults.
Sounds suspiciously like you. Belittling people who want aspects of older games in Skyrim. You even did it on this thread. You say things without evidence.
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!beef
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 6:50 am

i haven't read the majority of this thread. that said I am glad they are keeping combat the traditional MMO experience of hotbar, classes, cooldowns, etc. i enjoyed that gameplay in the previous MMO's i've played and it works well for the genre.
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KIng James
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 3:08 am

I am glad they are keeping combat the traditional MMO experience of hotbar, classes, cooldowns, etc.

i enjoyed that gameplay in the previous MMO's i've played and it works well for the genre.

:rofl: :shakehead:
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Charlotte Lloyd-Jones
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 4:08 pm

People need to understand that MMORPGs and single player RPGs are two very different beasts. Yes, Darkfall Online had first person twitch-based for ranged combat and Mortal Online had first person real-time combat. However, we have to keep in mind these were niche indie MMOs created to try and appeal to a different audience from the mainstream MMO audience. That being said, AAA MMOs all basically follow the same principles: third person combat, auto-target, tool bar, class system, level cap, etc.

I personally played Darkfall Online for quite some time and while some of the ideas were a nice change from the standard MMO formula, the game was ridiculously unbalanced in regards to the skill progression system similar to TES games, twitch-based combat all depended on ones latency, and combat degenerated into a bunny-hopping zerg fest with everyone spamming AOE spells to try and kill everyone in the area. The game is virtually impossible to play unless you started playing the day it came out and joined a strong guild with stable alliance ties. So in theory, yeah, Skyrim transformed into an MMO sounds great, but in practice it would be an absolute nightmare.

When ZeniMax Online says first and foremost they wanted to make an enjoyable game, they were being serious. If they could make a game that retained more traits of what players consider to be TES, they would. Beyond anything else though, players like balance, fair and exciting combat, and in the case of MMOs team-oriented builds that lead to dynamic group makeups. AAA MMOs are the way they are today because they work. That being said, ESO is not just another "WoW Clone" and is taking steps to separate itself from the norm by making combat more dynamic, having a dynamic 3-faction conflict, a lesser focus on the holy trinity, and overall an experience that feels like TES, but within an MMO space.

I think it's just best if everyone takes a step back and truly consider what a TES game actually is. Regardless of whatever your first TES game, whether it was Arena or Skyrim, the core factor that makes a TES game is being able to go wherever you want and do whatever you want. This is the fundamental core of the franchise and ESO will retain that feature just as any previous TES game has. BGS has done a fantastic job of creating a single player TES experience everyone has grown to love and cherish for the past 18 years. Now lets give ZeniMax their chance to make the online TES experience players have been asking for. It will be different, but just because of that doesn't mean it will be any lesser than the other games. Give it a chance and let them release it first before you judge.
These two are fun-killers which have prevent me to enjoy from any already existing MMOs. Third big fun-killer on common MMOs are fast respawning enemies. I hope TES:O will do them in some different way to keep the game enjoyable.
There you are absolutely right. I hope they have this right in the game.
The immersion of TES games is built on two base elements: combat and exploration. As long as they are remaining interesting playing the game will be fun.
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Rodney C
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 6:46 pm

Sounds suspiciously like you. Belittling people who want aspects of older games in Skyrim. You even did it on this thread. You say things without evidence.

I haven't belittled people who want aspects of older games in Skyrim. I've spoken out against people who tell others that like Skyrim they are wrong because they don't find what was lost to be that important. The loss of Spellmaking, open lock spells, and spears, doesn't bother me in the least bit. While they were nice additions, I don't find them to be important characteristics of Elder Scrolls games.

When someone comes along and tells me I'm wrong for thinking that, I will speak out against it.

When people tell me I'm wrong because I want more kill cams and not less, I will speak out against them, and yes, I will vote "no" in their "should there be a toggle" poll.
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DAVId Bryant
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 6:56 am

I haven't belittled people who want aspects of older games in Skyrim. I've spoken out against people who tell others that like Skyrim they are wrong because they don't find what was lost to be that important. The loss of Spellmaking, open lock spells, and spears, doesn't bother me in the least bit. While they were nice additions, I don't find them to be important characteristics of Elder Scrolls games.

When someone comes along and tells me I'm wrong for thinking that, I will speak out against it.

When people tell me I'm wrong because I want more kill cams and not less, I will speak out against them, and yes, I will vote "no" in their "should there be a toggle" poll.
I'm not really bothered what you think to be honest. You just seem to spout rubbish. 'Urm... what? Really? You're just clutching at straws' and 'Of course I just wasted my time typing all of that up, because you're not the type who cares about someone else's opinion, you'll just dismiss my responses, put your fingers in your ears, and scream "STREAMLINED STREAMLINED STREAMLINED!!" while continuing to make false claims about the entire series.' You say other people belittle others views when you do it yourself... You constantly tell people they are WRONG for wanting something back. In fact it's all you seem to do.
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STEVI INQUE
 
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Post » Tue May 15, 2012 12:15 am

I've never once said somebody was wrong for wanting something back. Quote me on it. You can't.

I said what I said because the guy I was responding to was already telling me I was "wrong" for believing the series to be getting better, by claiming that I couldn't possibly have meant what I said... Unlike you, I can quote where people in this thread have told me I was wrong for expressing my point of view:

My quote:

And then there's people like you who like to make baseless generalizations and assumptions.

I've been with the series longer than just Oblivion and Skyrim, and I don't feel the franchise has been "cheapened", as you put it. In fact, I feel the series is bigger and better than it ever has been.

You will notice I didn't say anybody was wrong. I made a reference to a guy that I had quoted, who had made a claim about all TES fans feeling a certain way. I am a TES fan, and I do not feel that way. I feel that the series is getting bigger and better.

I was met with:

:rofl:
I highly doubt that statement was meant in truth, and here's why....

This series has been getting streamlined since Morrowind, and not in a good way. Why else do people want to retain the old systems through mods more than adopt the newer systems into the older games?

I was met with 1.) laughter and 2.) being flat out told that I was wrong for how I felt, and being told "how it really is". The second guy, which my comment was directed towards, did not leave the subject open to discussion as evidenced by him making the claim that I couldn't have made my statement in truth, he proceeded to tell me how I was wrong for thinking TES is getting better. He imposed his priorities for the series upon me. I responded to every one of his counter claims, explaining why those claims he made were either 1.) inaccurate or 2.) not a big deal to me. But his form of debate - which wasn't debate, it was telling me I was wrong, and attempting to tell me what the "truth" is - did not leave it open for him to accept or respect my point of view. He was imposing his upon me, and my different viewpoint about the series be damned.

So go back and take a look through this thread - and all the others that you like to make accusations towards me about - and actually read them and figure out just what it is I am responding to.

You'll come to the conclusion rather quickly that my "crusade" isn't against someone disliking a choice made in Skyrim, but rather their attitude and methods of going about it. When I am disrespected by someone else, I will speak out.

So again, quote me on where I've attacked someone simply for having a different opinion. You can't do it.

I, however, have quoted where I was attacked for my opinion, and where I spoke out against that disrespectful attitude.
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Dona BlackHeart
 
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Post » Mon May 14, 2012 11:38 pm

This has become personal. I may come back and clean it all up, but I am watching the TV now so it is going to have to wait.
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Luis Longoria
 
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