I don't think it's that easy to just infect people, when talking about a beast designed to hunt and kill. And I'm still not sure that won't count as an attempted invasion given the amount of control Hircine can have over werebeasts.

An interesting point of discussion here... the werebeasts Hircine created are Daedra (similar to Dremora or Scamps). Is a person in beast form also considered a Daedra? I had the idea that someone infected with lycanthropy has a kind of special link with a Daedric spirit, and a transformation is that spirit temporarily taking over the person's body. Like an unbound summoning, except instead of getting its own body, it gets and changes the "summoner's" body.

In relation to the Circle, they were given a unique ability to have more direct control over the Daedric spirit, making it more like a bound summoning.

They could just make sure they're near a bandit camp or something, so they have a snack ready and waiting after their transformation. That would even bolster a werebeast's reputation if they could take care of outlaws and leave innocent people alone. Nothing like that happens though, because people in beast form can't control who they attack and kill (except possibly other werewolves).

Tharsten had the Ring of Hircine. I'm also not sure if it's stated that he even had lycanthropy, and didn't just use the ring for his transformations (considering Korst Wind-Eye could detect lycanthropy in you but didn't know about Tharsten, it's possible he never really had it). We also don't know what his behavior in beast form was like, just that he was a good leader in human form.

I'm not familiar with the Daggerfall wereboar in question. Can you provide a link?

There's a difference between being mindless and crazy, and out of control. The former we know doesn't always happen because there are packs of werebeasts and they can follow orders given by Hircine, but the latter means the person's own will doesn't factor much in to what they do in beast form. We don't have any significant evidence of a person being in control in beast form except with the Circle.

Whatever the reason, it is lore that they have more control than normal. Their ability to forgo transformations is noted in the game, and I believe their lack of a need to kill is too. Another point is how the Whiterun guards will complain to you because the "dogs" howling in Jorrvaskr gets out of hand. So the Circle can be transformed in Jorrvaskr, but they don't go on rampages.

> I'm not familiar with the Daggerfall wereboar in question. Can you provide a link?

The wereboar had gone into seclusion to avoid hunting anyone when he transformed, essentially squandering Hircine's gift (at least as Hircine saw it): http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Daggerfall:Hircine%27s_Quest

Hircine's quest in Skyrim seems to be a more sophisticated (both technologically and story-wise) version of the same idea.

I see, thanks.

"I have a child, apparently miserable with all the blessings I have given him, who needs ... what is the euphemism? To be taught a lesson? A very serious lesson."

That quest just says that the person is miserable with lycanthropy (as most people would be), and Hircine wants you to kill him. It doesn't mean he had control in beast form, just that he hated having lycanthropy. He perhaps sabotaged his transformations so he couldn't get to people when he changed (and delving into a Daggerfall dungeon is a good way to make sure you won't get out within a few hours..). Or maybe he didn't hunt outside of his forced transformations, and Hircine was displeased at this.

I am going to ask something here rather than start a new lore thread. So why did Hircine chose not to make all lycanthropes immortal? Why did he not make immortality part of the disease that way all those who are infected live forever to do his bidding unless they are killed?

I was thinking that drinking blood of another werewolf will cause them to be aware of each other and not attack. As Aela considered the player to be "born into the pack." Although we all have reason to believe werewolves do not attack each other, as Sinding does not attack you. But that can be for gameplay reasons.

The manifestation of an Avatar is not an invasion and neither is speaking with mortals. Hircine doesn't control Werebeast but he can send them dreams as in Bloodmoon or just talk to them like some Daedra like to do. We clearly disagree on whether Werebeast have control but they do take orders from Hircine, the ones who want to anyway. The Wereboar from Daggerfall didn't. The Werewolves in Bloodmoon kidnapped certain individuals including the PC for the Bloodmoon ritual under Hircine's orders. I don't see why he can't just tell them to leave someone alive every now and then. The Companions, who in my view are no different, don't seem to have a problem infecting others with their blood. Other Werebeast could do the same for the willing.


Werebeast are NOT Daedra. Nor are Vampires. They were created by Daedric Princess but are not Daedra themselves. They were changed, similarly to the Dunmer who were cursed by Azura, same with the Khajiit or how the Orcs were changed by Boethiah. They are essentially different races if you want to think of it that way.


There is Sinding, though he had issues, also had control enough to transform and escape inprisonment and then to hunt down his hunters. There was also the rouge Wereboar. He/She had enough control to disobey Hircine and to continue killing to stay alive. If he/she had not taken it upon themselves to kill (while still disobeying Hircine) then they would have died and there would have been no need for Hircine to send the PC on the quest.

Very true I did not think of it being because of the way he claims his souls. It is a good thing you know your lore or I would be confused all the time.

Good question. I'm thinking that he couldn't. This is just a theory but to my knowledge, there are no living(mortal) things that can live forever. The only things in this series that seem to be able to exist or remain animated for a virtually unlimited amount of time are Undead. Elves and Sorcerers can live for extended periods of time naturally and mysticaly, respectivly, or with a combination of the two but they will eventually fade(apparently). Perhaps it is not possible to keep a living being alive indefinitely in this universe. (Dagoth Ur kinda broke the rules with his use of Lorkan's Heart. Corprus sufferers don't count.) Perhaps this has something to do with Arkay himself. Anyway, Hircine doesn't seem to care about that type of thing. He has this visious life and death cycle thing going on.

An "army" of werebeasts would be similar to an army of Dremora. No, the Prince doesn't have direct control, but most would listen and follow orders. That's a big no-no for a Prince to have so much control over Mundus.

But again, there's no information on the wereboar's behavior in beast form (aside that he's hostile to you). Hircine wanted his "child" punished because they hated having lycanthropy. There's nothing to say they weren't still an out-of-control beast when changed, just that they did something about their lycanthropy that strongly displeased Hircine... such as hiding deep in a dungeon away from people, so when they changed there's no one nearby to hunt.

A scratch or bite is not a sure-fire way to infect someone with lycanthropy (both in Daggerfall and Bloodmoon, the risk of catching Sanies Lupinus was rather low). That's even if the person doesn't get killed in the process, as werewolves can easily overpower most people, or use a Cure Disease potion/spell afterward. I doubt Hircine even cares to have a large army (not all Daedric Princes wish to take over Nirn, it's mostly just Dagon that does).

That of course requires a willing "victim" and someone who's willing to turn other people. Given the normal state of lycanthropy, with the need to change and kill, it's not something people would normally want to give, let alone accept. The Circle doesn't have a need to change and kill, though, which gives them better PR (yet it's still not something they're public about).

Though the Dunmer, Khajiit, and Orcs weren't created. They were Chimer, Forest People, and Aldmer that were changed following a huge cultural shift. Werebeasts have a completely different mindset while in beast form compared to their normal form, and constantly change back and forth. It's not a cultural thing.

Vampires were created by corrupting a person and changing them, so aren't Daedra. But Hircine can make werebeasts:
http://imperial-library.info/content/16-accords-madness

It's reasonable to assume Daedra such as these were the ones to first infect people on Nirn. And I like to think a person's body being taken over by a Daedric spirit brings in a nice mystical element to it. Note how the cures to lycanthropy involved forcing your lycanthropy onto someone else and killing them (Daggerfall and Bloodmoon) or by separating a beast spirit from you and killing that spirit (Skyrim).

Sinding killed the girl, then later killed a group of hunters. In normal form, he doesn't want all the killing and wants to be left alone to live a normal life, but in beast form he's all for killing. He just doesn't want to kill you because you helped him and you were a werewolf at that point (given the cursed Ring of Hircine that makes you change at random).

Someone with lycanthropy can change into beast form once a day, that's not a Circle-only thing.

In Daggerfall, you did not die from not killing. You were just severely weakened such that you'd be likely to die if you ever ran into anything that could pinch you.

Okay thank you. Here is another question for you, then why didn't he make becoming Undead part of lycanthropy? To me I would think he would want his lycanthropes on Nirn as long as possible doing his bidding and hunting in his name.

Does living long always mean undead? I am sure Hircine is all about hunting and sportsmanship. He actually has no problems with Arkay. Being undead is Molag Bal's forte. Since he created vampires to mock Arkay. Namira also has qualms with Arkay, it would seem. Hircine, however, is more of a deity that is against what is natural. Some consider Lycanthropy to be a "perversion" of the natural order of things.

For some reason I believe survival of the fittest plays a good part in it as well. Hunting is all about living and dying. Predator vs prey. He could certainly extend their lives, but I doubt he would make them immortal, in a sense. In Bloodmoon, he had frozen werewolves in glaciers. Some speculate they were kept there ever since the last bloodmoon ritual, which means he probably preserved them.

I thought Molag Bal didn't make vampires intentionally he just [censored] a woman who died and became the first vampire. The survival of the fittest thing makes sense because it it like the quest in Skyrim Ill let by the moonlight where if you kill the hunters Hircine says they were no prey yet you continue to amuse and impress.

Oh, they were prey. He just said they were no "base prey." The tables just turned when the hunted became the hunter. But Molag Bal did make vampires intentionally. He sought to spite Arkay, who is the god of life and death, by creating a creature that could neither die nor live. This story is mentioned twice in Elder Scrolls lore in two books. One written by vampires.

Do you have a link to these books they sound interesting?

He says they were "no mean prey" - "mean" in this case meaning minor/easy. You and Sinding, in an unexpected reversal (the prey became the predator), turned out to be far stronger hunters than the rest of them combined even though they were all strong hunters in their own right. That wins Hircine's approval on both counts.

I don't think Hircine cares to make his creations immortal because there's no reason for him to do so and it would actually be contrary to the nature of the hunt.

Yeah.

http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Manifesto_Cyrodiil_Vampyrum and http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Opusculus_Lamae_Bal_ta_Mezzamortie

"

Thanks

The same could be said of Azura and the Dunmer, Molag Bal and the faithful Vampires and Malacath to the Orismer. I don't think Hircine places any more influence over his followers than the others.


Hircine revolutionized the various strains of the Disease that is responsible for Werebeast. He did not mold one into shape and let it loose on Nirn. This is not very different from the way in which Vampires came to be. Daedra have the power to change not to create. He changed men and mer into beast he did not create daedric followers.




These statements are contradictory. They cannot have control in one instance and be wild in another. The power to transform at their own volition only supports the theory that they have control, otherwise what use would the power be if they say, transformed out of necessity of defense but then went wildly roaring onto a town or area where they could be tracked and then were ultimately hunted down? Several in-game books and NPC encounters, including the Companions, hint at this. The need to kill is also suspect. What is it other than a strong motivating factor to hunt? Why would Hircine design such a kill switch if the beast are just going to become feral and kill anyway? Why would he care about the Wereboar if he could just order him/her around in their feral state like his hounds? I cannot think of any explanation regarding these instances besides allowing for the likelihood that
Werebeast have control and lucidity to some degree while they are under claw and fang.

Azura, Malacath, and Molag Bal don't have control over Dunmer, Orsimer, and Vampires. The Daedra's influence over their followers is generally weak enough to not be a problem. People may worship them, but it's their free choice to.

We don't know how lycanthropy originally got onto Mundus, but we know Hircine can breed the beasts in his realm and give them the disease. It's not that farfetched of an idea that one such beast got summoned to Mundus and infected the first man or mer with it.

I'm not saying he created followers (any more than Dagon/Azura/etc do), I'm saying a daedric spirit binds itself to a person in some way when they get lycanthropy, and it's that daedric spirit that occasionally takes over a person and causes the physical and mental change.

They have control in human form, not beast form. Sinding did not want to kill while in human form and tried to live normally, and "Hircine's child" hid himself away while in human form, but when changed they're still beasts that kill.

The beast is a skilled hunter. It's not stupid. They find worthy prey, and they it hunt down and kill it. They wouldn't roar wildly into a town unless they felt there was a chance to be victorious in getting whatever their prey was. They are of course not perfect, so sometimes will bite off more than they can chew, so to speak.

Willfully inducing a transformation is to give in to the hunt. It doesn't mean the person is in control when changed. Transforming out of necessity of defense would be putting your faith into beast to keep you alive in the face of adversity. It's a dangerous risk, but if you're being out-maneuvered and on the verge of being killed, it may be the only apparent chance for survival.

Can you give examples?

That's exactly what it is. Werewolves are hunters and killers. The need to kill helps ensure that behavior.

Because their feral state only lasts for 9 hours at most, once or twice a month. Anything more than that requires the person to willingly change. The wereboar in question could have, while in human form, kept himself hidden/locked away so that when his forced transformations occurred, there was no worthy prey around for the beast to hunt and kill. This would be something that obviously displeases Hircine.

I've always wondered if werewolve aged slower than most people. Ever since Arnbjorn claimed you are "Moon-born" and being "more than mortal" sort of raised my question.

Tharsten Heart-Fang seems to suggest so. Can't say if that applies to the Circle or not, though. However, I think a werewolf is more likely to be killed during one of their "outings", and/or by a hunter, rather than old age.

Well, he says that knowing or at least, speculating that you are from the Companions, since he could not imagine you got Lycanthropy from anywhere else. Although Tharsten used the ring of Hircine to prolong his life. Though most people speculate his Lycanthropy helped him with that.

Werewolves pretty much die in their beast form often times than their human form. How unfortunate to some in ES lore to transform into a beast, only to wake up in the Hunting Grounds.

Yeah, though I'm not sure what he says is indicative of having prolonged life, just that you're "better" than normal people (which you are, by being higher on the food chain). Doesn't mean it can't mean having a longer life, but I don't think there's enough to say he meant that.

I'd say transforming with the ring has the same affects on a person's health and longevity as willingly transforming with lycanthropy. One just allows you to do it more often and avoid forced transformations and bloodlust (as long as Hircine isn't upset with you).

I would say just having Lycanthropy probably does prolong your life by maybe 25-50 years possibly 100, who knows, but with the Ring of Hircine I think you can prolong your life a lot more because it is a daedric artifact so it s possible it has some kind of magic to it that makes you live longer since it allows you to transform into a werewolf even if you are not one.

I come back to you now on this full moon lit night to ask if you think and of the WereBeast specific content featured in the http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8SE5owAIPmk will be featured in the upcoming http://wolfsgamingblog.com/2012/03/06/skyrim-1-5-update-details-revealed/ or any DLC in the future.