I guess all werewolves suffer from these urges, even in Daggerfall they were moody and violent. Real life folklore can also reinforce the idea that they have mental issues.

And who knows what the Circle did. You may be right, since the assumption we can make is that they do not suffer from too much bloodlust and they don't have forced transformations as regular werewolves do. And pretty much as you said, the only catch really is insomnia and their souls going to the Hunting Ground. Which in my honest opinion, is not as bad as the Nightingales deal for an afterlife.

Don't all werewolves have insomnia? I do not think that the Companions suffer from bloodlust, but they suffer from the urge to change into werewolves. That is what I got from reading Kodlak's journal when he is talking about Vilkas.

A person's mood is affected if they have lycanthropy, even in human form. How much and under what conditions it can become a problem is up for debate, though... AFAIK, there's no evidence of a "normal" werewolf flipping out without being in beast form, unless they've gone insane.

Something to keep in mind for Sinding, he had the cursed Ring of Hircine. Sinding stole it from whoever had it, which displeased Hircine (theft is not sporting) and led him to lay a curse on it that causes the wearer to uncontrollably change at random times and be unable to take it off. I was under the impression that the ring ignited his ambition to hunt in the presence of such meek prey, which eventually caused him to change and kill the girl, then change back before people found him with her mutilated body.

I kind of like the Circle. It adds a bit more depth to the relationship between Hircine and his followers. As much as I like Aela as a character, it was also nice to see people like Kodlak, Farkas, and Vilkas... people who did initially buy in to Hircine's servitude for the powers of the beast, but then were stuck with it when they had a change of heart (at least until you showed up to play Hero and get them cured; I still wonder what the original cure Kodlak knew of was, as the blue flame in Ysgramor's Tomb was a last-ditch effort in case he couldn't get cured before dying).

The problem, from my POV, is the lack of ability to be a "normal" non-Circle werewolf. Lore-wise it's all good... there's sufficient explanation as to why lycanthropy is different, and they acknowledge how it used to be. It just stinks that you're stuck to getting the Circle's form of lycanthropy.

The Circle doesn't suffer from bloodlust in that they don't have to kill to remain healthy (the kind of bloodlust seen in Daggerfall and Bloodmoon). But they do still "hear the call of the blood", which I take it is something encourages them to change, and when you kill someone in game and feed on them you get the message "Bloodlust extended".

I'd assume from this that "bloodlust" is your drive to hunt and kill as a werewolf. For normal werewolves, it's something they have to obey or else they get seriously weakened. For the Circle, it's something they feel but they can condition themselves to ignore it and still remain healthy. If you have the (non-cursed) Ring of Hircine, then it's completely under control.

I agree with you, I liked the Circle but I wish we had the option to be a normal werewolf. What you said about the bloodlust is essentially the same thing as I said that they have the urge to change into a werewolf just not to go on a killing spree.

Most likely. I mean, insomnia causes mental and emotional strain on a person. I can imagine it would be overwhelming, considering the Lycanthropic individual undergoes a monthly transformation and has to endure the burdens(or blessings) that comes along with it. As I mentioned before, it all depends on the morality of killing an innocent person and rather the werewolf sees it as a survival issue or not. Nevertheless, Lycanthropes are moody, and often at times confused, "unable to seperate man from animal" and being "beffudled by the Beast." Part of their insane antics is most likely due to their Lycanthropy, meaning insomnia could play a part in it.

> It is not the traditional western folk lore.

Traditional western folklore is also more diverse than most people give it credit for. An awful lot of the 'traditional' elements were actually introduced during Victorian times and weren't really part of the folklore prior to that.

This includes - among other things - forced lunar transformations. That was part of a few pre-Victorian legends, but far from being universal.

> They don't transform under the moons, nor do they have to kill but WE MUST ALL KEEP IN MIND THAT THAT IS THE PROBLEM

I don't see why it is a problem when the lore reason for this differences is given to you directly in the game.

Ok, lets talk about the Companions. They don't have to transform under the moons and kill to survive. That is the Problem. That is what needs to be fixed about Werebeast gameplay. I am of the opinion that Bethesda had no time to flesh out Werewolves, or Vampires and what we have are unfinished products. The reasons given in the game don't really cover this. Why would Hircine do this? Just because these features are missing from Werewolf gameplay and AI doesn't mean it was meant to be this way. The Companions don't SAY that Hircine blessed them with the ability to do HIS will at THEIR own convenience. I think it is really irresponsable to draw conclusions from something that may very well be a glitch.

> They don't have to transform under the moons and kill to survive. That is the Problem.

Why?

> The Companions don't SAY that Hircine blessed them with the ability to do HIS will at THEIR own convenience.

They don't all consider it to be a blessing, but this is exactly what happened through the trickery of the Glenmoril Witches, as several in-game sources point to or state outright.

Welcome to making games. The plans are almost always much more grand than the finished result. But with as much as people clamor for werewolves, it's good enough they got included at all, and are playable.

More followers/pets. Outside of this, the only way to become a werewolf (if you're not one at birth) is to be attacked by one and survive... something that doesn't give the victim very good chances (they'd more likely be torn apart and killed than infected and live). The Glenmoril Witches, acting in Hircine's interest, helps bring more people to him.

They do, really. Hircine's will is to hunt and sacrifice mortals, which is what the Circle does with their lycanthropy. It's stated (and shown) in the game that the Circle has more control over themselves in beast form than is usual, and they don't suffer from lunar transformations or debilitating bloodlust (which is why Vilkas, Farkas, and Kodlak can avoid changing and remain capable warriors, even if they still feel a need to hunt and kill).

But they have done this before. Adding in the basics of what Werebeast have been in the past isn't exactly ground breaking new territory. I think they rushed them in the last minute.


I was referring to the so called "differences" between them and other Werebeast. Giving them complete control and taking away their bloodlust will have them killing less people, not more. What is the thinking behind this? How does Hircine benefit? That is why I think it was not intended to be fact/lore. Their true nature was left out, they are not finished, in-game, or it is too much of an inconveniance to have them transforming(despite the supposed great AI) that doesn't mean they don't do it behind the scenes, in the reality of that world if you will.


Again, there is no statement to say that they don't have to transform or kill. The only difference between them and others is their relationship with the Glenmoril Hagravens. They are not crazy or feral and can transform, presumbably one a day as well like the PC and this has been a power before in Daggerfall. Aela stated that SOME Werebeast can't handle it, that means that there are other Werebeast out there just as sane and in control as the companions. Non crazy or screwed up Werebeast are sort of new lore, a further glimpse into this part of the world. It has been greatly implied that Werebeast have had control of their actions, as they do take more or less complicated orders from Hircine, as the PC did in Bloodmoon and their was the rouge WereBoar in Daggerfall and Tharsten Heart-Fang from Bloodmoon. We have met crazy and feral Werebeast before and perhaps a few like sinding as well. That being typed, and back to my point and the point of this thread, the things that are missing are the lunar transformation and post transformation bloodlust(and the other powers of course). All evidence that I can see from past games and Skyrim suggest to me that this is the case and not meant to be, nor should it be allowed to endure.

Maybe. Quite a few things in the game feel rushed, but it's difficult to say exactly what the problem was. Maybe since it was so strictly tied to the Companions quest line, with the Companions being the game's Fighter's Guild, they didn't want to force such negatives on warrior characters. Or maybe they didn't feel confident in being able to design the game around the possibility of the player having forced transformations (they'd have to ask constantly "well, what happens if the player turns into a werewolf here?"). If it's completely under your control, it's not a big problem.

More followers. Terrfyg and his group would be more willing to turn to Hircine if they had some control of it, as uncontrolled transformations would be less useful for his line of work. Unlike normal people he wanted to become a werewolf, but likely wouldn't accept it if he had uncontrolled transformations and unchecked bloodlust.

Creating lore isn't an exact process. Sometimes you create lore that you didn't intend, or gameplay limitations can sneak their way into lore (see: the http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Oblivion:Levitation_Act, and the subsequent loss and rediscovery of levitation magic noted in the novels, for an extreme example).

- http://imperial-library.info/content/kodlaks-journal

Interestingly, that journal entry was written before Farkas' run-in with the Silver Hand, meaning he willingly transformed after he had given them up. A missed story point there...

I think she's more referencing the Ravening Lunatics and such you could encounter in Bloodmoon, and the werewolf monsters you could run into in Daggerfall. It's not that other people are in complete control like the Circle, but they haven't gone insane and can still function in society despite what they go through.

Lunar transformations and bloodlust have been part of lore since Daggerfall, and Skyrim didn't seek to remove it as evidenced by Sinding. But, for some reason the developers figured it wouldn't work well for players in Skyrim and made modifications to the design, and created some new lore in the process.

I have a question, so when werewolves have to transform on full moons in TES do they have control of themselves they just have to kill someone because of their bloodlust or do only some have control and others have trouble controlling themselves and they just kill anyone they see when they are a werewolf?

Seems to vary. PCs always have agency when a werewolf, even if they can't control when they become werewolves. Other werewolf characters seem to have an actual struggle with their bloodlust, and may even lose themselves to the moment and kill someone they didn't want to. Plenty of werewolves are also simply insane and kill without a care in the world.

Sinding seems to be the second of those: he has some control (as shown during your meeting at Bloated Man's Grotto), but not full control, and when he loses it, innocent people get hurt.

That's why he wanted the ring, and why (in Bloated Man's Grotto) he states that he has realized he simply can't live among normal society, even if he survives the Hunt (which also happens to put him back in Hircine's good graces).

They kill anyone and everyone. Each time you transformed in Daggerfall and Bloodmoon, you had to kill someone to sate your bloodlust. Just remember that they are taken over by the Beast, absolutely consumed with rage and hunger that they black out and wake up naked after hours of rampaging across the wilderness. It's an instinct to kill and hunt, that drives them to kill a person to sate their supernatural bestial urges.

"The werewolf emerged from the gloom, brown and black, with slavering jaws, looking at me with the eyes of the cemetery caretaker, now given only to animal hunger."

"The locals warned me to wait until morning to speak to the caretaker, but I was impatient for information, and did not want to waste a moment. I trekked through the woods to the lonely graveyard, and immediately found the shuffling, elderly man who was the caretaker. He bade me leave, that the land was haunted and if I chose to stay I would be in the greatest danger." http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Charwich-Koniinge_Letters, Volume 1

No, I mean do those that have control when they are forced during full moons do they kill someone only because they have to due to bloodlust, and then there are those who have no control and kill anyone and everyone.

I think if they didn't had bloodlust, they wouldn't be harming innocent people. Unless they are the Companions who have control over their Lycanthropy, I doubt they can control it. If that is what you are asking me. If those under lunar transformations suffer from bloodlust?

I think what he's asking is this: is a single kill (and feeding, presumably) sufficient to sate a werewolf's bloodlust in some cases, allowing them to regain a degree of lucidity and/or remove the compulsion to hunt and kill at that point? (This would apply per-transformation, of course.)

This is kind of what I am asking. What I want to know is are there some werewolves who can control themselves once they change, but they do kill someone because they have bloodlust so they have to kill a person otherwise they will become extremely weak almost to the point of death?

I'd say perhaps a little, but not to any significant degree. They may become lucid enough to realize what they're doing, but not enough to stop themselves. The need to hunt may also be lessened, but I doubt they'd pass up another opportunity should one present itself.

If Hircine wanted more "followers" he could just have them infected and there are many who worship him freely. I don't see why he has to make a deal with anyone.


This is more of an isolated event and possibly a joke making light of the loss of the much liked Levitation spell MHO. If something is left out or removed from gameplay that doesn't mean that there is a lore reason or lore is changes. Spears didn't magiaclly dissapear from the universe in some event. Mages didn't suddenly forget how to craft their own spells. And Werewolves didn't just stop turning under the full moon.


I don't think the Companions are special in this way. I think that they are the norm for Werebeast that learn to deal with their condition. They never say that they are different from any other beast.


I cannot believe that they created "new lore" from this. They left the lore out. The new lore that I think was introduced are the Companions as not crazy monsters, a deeper look into the world of ManBeast.

I think Werebeast have full control while they are transformed. They lust for blood yes, but they must choose to take it or perish from not doing so. Some may go crazy and feral but as with the PC and the Companions as well as others from previous games, the control is there as well as the temptation and the need to survive.

It was the Glenmoril Witches that made the deal. They did so on behalf of Hircine, but there's not much to say how much Hircine himself had in the process. I also don't think it's that easy for Hircine to simply infect people (not the least of which because that if it happens too much it could constitute in Daedric invasion, which is forbidden).

It may be a lighthearted joke, but it is real lore, too. The same thing happened with multiple enchantments, which people forgot but have started to relearn after http://imperial-library.info/content/twin-secrets.

It does when there's in-world explanations for the differences. Stuff like spears or werewolves in Cyrodiil, sure... there's no explanation given about that so it's safe to assume they were still there, but just not represented in game. But when you have people commenting on the Levitation Act, or how a deal with a witch coven granted a group of soon-to-be werewolves more control, you shouldn't ignore it.

I'm pretty sure they did in dialog. Unfortunately, being in dialog makes it harder to look up references for.

Normally, people are monsters in beast form. There's multiple examples of this in previous games. If normal people could control themselves in beast form, I fail to see why they're always seen as threats by everyone everywhere you go. Where's the Paarthurnax of werewolves?

Except for the PC and Companions, I'm not aware of any examples of others that have significant control. Daggerfall has multiple examples of out-of-control werewolves, as does Bloodmoon. And in Skyrim, you have Sinding losing control and killing the girl, then later killing a whole party of hunters. The Companions, though they still feel bloodlust, don't have to transform as Kodlak, Vilkas, and Farkas were able to voluntarily give up their transformations... and we know normal werewolves do have to transform.

I believe some people can control themselves to a degree after they have transformed they just have to kill someone to keep from being weakened after that they just have the want or urge to kill, but they do not have to. Then there are the others who cannot control themselves at all and kill everything.

He could just order his "children" to infect more people. He doesn't have to do it personally.


They are seen as threats and are hated and feared because they have to kill humans in order to survive. There is no negotiation for them, it's kill or die. Even Vampires are accepted in to some facets of society, like the Mages Guild, or they were before the Guild dissolved but they can abstain from drinking blood for moderate periods of time and don't even have to kill their victims. Werebeast have no such luxury.


The rouge WereBoar in Daggerfall and Tharsten Heart-Fang from Bloodmoon had control. If the WereBoar were just a mad animal he/she would not have the state of mind to disobey Hircine. Tharsten Heart-Fang possessed the ring of Hircine which gave him more control over his transformations and he utilized it to further his own ambitions. We now know that some Werebeast are crazy and others are not for a certainty. Either way, they attack and kill people because they must in order to survive. This is the very large motivating factor to carry on Hircine's main mandate if you will. The Hunt. Other Werebeast have been seen following specific orders from Hircine just as the PC does. A mindless or crazy feral beast would not be capable of that.

We will just have to agree to disagree when it comes to the Companions. I fail to see how they are special and I think there control is a result of the developers dearth of time or sheer conveniance. Hopefully some moonlight will be shed on this topic in the DLC.