Removal of features. : V - Skyrim

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:43 am

I'm not trying to point you out individually, but, just because attributes were like that in Oblivion, doesn't mean they have to be like that in skyrim/.

YES!

Not every game has to be a carbon copy of the prior, less it have the number "2" after the IV in Oblivion. That would quite obviously look silly, so let us not go to Camelot.

These things are most commonly referred to as sequels of sequels, and usually become quite stagnant and boring when utilizing the exact same mechanics.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:53 am

i liked the features but the whole thing about me having to max all my attributes and having to pay attention to what skills I level and power-leveling bothered me I wasn't playing the game I was boosting and cared obsessively about my stats.
now the perk system in my opinion needs to be improved the perks that increase damage and reduce magicka cost need to be removed and replaced by more unique perks and I say we have a general perks kinda like fallout for jumping height, running speed, ECT for more customization

I doubt anyone is arguing that the system was perfect. But that doesn't mean that throwing it out the window was the best way to deal with it.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:54 pm

YES!

Not every game has to be a carbon copy of the prior, less it have the number "2" after the IV in Oblivion. That would quite obviously look silly, so let us not go to Camelot.

These things are most commonly referred to as sequels of sequels, and usually become quite stagnant and boring when utilizing the exact same mechanics.

Don't get me wrong, i still think there could have been attributes and SC in Skyrim. I can understand why Beth chose not to add them but I don't agree with it.

The way attributes were level'ed could have been refined and shooken up considerably.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:40 am

They're killing this series slowly but surely. Gone are the days of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind. Oblivion is up there as well. Beth gutted and streamlined too much with Skyrim. Sad to see.

What got gutted?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:13 pm

Don't get me wrong, i still think there could have been attributes and SC in Skyrim. I can understand why Beth chose not to add them but I don't agree with it.

The way attributes were level'ed could have been refined and shooken up considerably.

Oh, that makes sense.

I really think attributes are an old anologue for a time when software and gaming companies didn't have the options available to them that they do now. There are so many different ways to implement 'attributes', which are really nothing more than skill checks accumulated to represent efficiency in something... and perks sort of do that.

Lets be honest here, some things were redundant and needed to be removed or condensed.

I didn't quite expect them to nail perks or dual-wielding on the first try, and attributes took a few decades to refine anyway.

Guess we'll see what happens, times and software... they are a'changing.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 11:02 am

not going to read through all this , but I can guess how most responses praise the ''innovative'' new system. Fact is it was never about seeing how powerful you are on a spreadsheet , its about tailoring your character exactly to your own personal desire, end of story , and you cant counter argument that. everyone is now dovahkiin and as game progresses you will be master of all skills. unless you reroll that is.

» Sat Jun 09, 2012 11:02 pm

I mean...can you SERIOUSLY enjoy a game like Daggerfall or Arena? Those games reeked of quantity over quality.

And your post reeks of someone trying to belittle games they haven't played, or tried to play and failed to get into.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:33 am

not going to read through all this , but I can guess how most responses praise the ''innovative'' new system. Fact is it was never about seeing how powerful you are on a spreadsheet , its about tailoring your character exactly to your own personal desire, end of story , and you cant counter argument that. everyone is now dovahkiin and as game progresses you will be master of all skills. unless you reroll that is.

So you have to have attributes to tailor your skills? That's what you wanted to tailor - a list of numbers?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:05 am

tried to play and failed to get into.

That's me on Morrowind.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 7:36 am

So you have to have attributes to tailor your skills? That's what you wanted to tailor - a list of numbers?

Just as a rule of thumb, if someone can't even take the time to read the OP...

Probably not worth starting a conversation with them.

Also, people are bringing up options again... shield your eyes from that other thread.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:55 am

That's me on Morrowind.

Did it keep saying MISS

Every time you tried to launch the game?

ZING!

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:09 pm

What got gutted? Spears, crossbows, attributes, variable jump heights, spells, spellcrafting, first person horse riding, portable alchemy, skills, Guilds, etc...

We have marriage though!

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:47 am

Oh, that makes sense.

I really think attributes are an old anologue for a time when software and gaming companies didn't have the options available to them that they do now. There are so many different ways to implement 'attributes', which are really nothing more than skill checks accumulated to represent efficiency in something... and perks sort of do that.

Lets be honest here, some things were redundant and needed to be removed or condensed.

I didn't quite expect them to nail perks or dual-wielding on the first try, and attributes took a few decades to refine anyway.

Guess we'll see what happens, times and software... they are a'changing.

Too true, and i'm not all that bothered by the removal of attributes in Skyrim.

But removing SC, that's a terrible sin! :swear:

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:15 pm

That's me on Morrowind.

At least you admit it.

I sometimes wonder whether some of the people who try and shrug Morrowind's popularity off as nostalgia even left Seyda Neen...

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:36 am

What got gutted? Spears, crossbows, attributes, variable jump heights, spells, spellcrafting, first person horse riding, portable alchemy, skills, Guilds, etc...

We have marriage though!

How did alchemy get gutted?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:15 am

Not portable anymore. What about the rest of my list?

We have marriage though!

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:09 am

I'm starting to think FailedToOpen, Scow2, Gram, & others are Devs trying to troll away their original fanbase while trying to justify the changes. And now they're all in the same thread!

I could go over each point, but the gist of it is: At some point in the earlier TES titles, there were at least 2-3 ways to approach one thing. IE Chameleon and sneaking, lockpicking and alteration, multiple modifying attributes, etc. And then you could tweak some stuff down to the exact effect %.

The reductions, simplifications, and conglomerations that Bethesda did do make sense. I do agree with you on that. What pisses every one off that fell in love with the earlier games is that the spirit of the game changed by axing all the technically unnecessary redundancies. I fell in love with TES BECAUSE of all the freedom. The other aspect I liked was the "spreadsheet-iness" (Ha! You think the earlier TES titles had some pointless numbers behind them? You starting gaming with consoles didn't you?). When two game's graphics and animation both svcked, it was a means of depth. It's called a "simulation". You know, the game genre that was popular before your gaming generation. And the early TES titles hardly qualified to be noted for their "simulation depth" as it were back when. Not sure why it keeps being brought up. Put it well above other RPGs like JRPGs.

And yes, TES VI will be more like a facebook game than Skyrim. When your only game design tool is an axe, everything looks like a redundancy. Odds are they will continue to do what they always did: Gut and redo major aspects. And when they gut and change something you actually liked from Skyrim: CRY ME A RIVER.

Not every game has to be a carbon copy of the prior

Zelda sold for how long and still does?
Imagine if they gutted and changed aspects of the core Zelda formula such that they were unrecognizable. And then people who only just played "Zelda" say to all the people who loved the original Zelda that it's the [censored] and so much better?

[censored]s. The lot of you.
GET
YOUR
OWN
DAMN
TES.
No seriously. I said it before with a thread: Bethesda NEEDS to do some spin-off titles across multiple genres. It's not like they don't have the resources now.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:20 am

i liked the features but the whole thing about me having to max all my attributes and having to pay attention to what skills I level and power-leveling bothered me I wasn't playing the game I was boosting and cared obsessively about my stats.
now the perk system in my opinion needs to be improved the perks that increase damage and reduce magicka cost need to be removed and replaced by more unique perks and I say we have a general perks kinda like fallout for jumping height, running speed, ECT for more customization

I agree that the system is far from perfect, I have said numerous times that it should be retooled. Seti explained to me the leveling system in Daggerfall I liked the idea of you distributing your attribute points how you wanted them allocated. Like let the system give you attribute points based maybe off of your willpower and intelligence and you can allocate them the way you wish and then maybe choose a general perk like I mentioned above.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 8:04 am

Well said Socucious. Beth has abandoned the vets. This series isn't what it once was.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 12:05 pm

Not portable anymore. What about the rest of my list?

We have marriage though!

Yea that means its totally gutted now.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:02 am

How did alchemy get gutted?

He means the portable apparatus. That was a great concept.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 5:23 am

I just wanna be able to create the char I WANT without having to go out and make a million useless potions, or summon a familiar and kill it countless times, just so my conjuration skillnis where I want it to be. That why I like the traditional point placing system, I could simply be who I wanted to be.
A better written story isint asking too much, is it?

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 1:24 am

Too true, and i'm not all that bothered by the removal of attributes in Skyrim.

But removing SC, that's a terrible sin! :swear:

I'm not sure that is true at all. In a well designed system, attributes function as another tier. Attributes function on a general level with broad affects. Skills, on another tier, are very specific and affect very specific tasks. The interplay between the two levels allows for a lot more variety and greater personalization. Two characters could have one-handed maxed with all the perks. But if one has a high strength and the other a low strength, they won't play the same. Whereas now, they pretty much will.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 4:11 am

I'm starting to think FailedToOpen, Scow2, Gram, & others are Devs trying to troll away their original fanbase while trying to justify the changes. And now they're all in the same thread!

I could go over each point, but the gist of it is: At some point in the earlier TES titles, there were at least 2-3 ways to approach one thing. IE Chameleon and sneaking, lockpicking and alteration, multiple modifying attributes, etc. And then you could tweak some stuff down to the exact effect %.

The reductions, simplifications, and conglomerations that Bethesda did do make sense. I do agree with you on that. What pisses every one off that fell in love with the earlier games is that the spirit of the game changed by axing all the technically unnecessary redundancies. I fell in love with TES BECAUSE of all the freedom. The other aspect I liked was the "spreadsheet-iness" (Ha! You think the earlier TES titles had some pointless numbers behind them? You starting gaming with consoles didn't you?). When two game's graphics and animation both svcked, it was a means of depth. It's called a "simulation". You know, the game genre that was popular before your gaming generation. And the early TES titles hardly qualified to be noted for their "simulation depth" as it were back when. Not sure why it keeps being brought up. Put it well above other RPGs like JRPGs.

And yes, TES VI will be more like a facebook game than Skyrim. When your only game design tool is an axe, everything looks like a redundancy. Odds are they will continue to do what they always did: Gut and redo major aspects. And when they gut and change something you actually liked from Skyrim: CRY ME A RIVER.

Zelda sold for how long and still does?
Imagine if they gutted and changed aspects of the core Zelda formula such that they were unrecognizable. And then people who only just played "Zelda" say to all the people who loved the original Zelda that it's the [censored] and so much better?

[censored]s. The lot of you.
GET
YOUR
OWN
DAMN
TES.
No seriously. I said it before with a thread: Bethesda NEEDS to do some spin-off titles across multiple genres. It's not like they don't have the resources now.

That's hilarious, have you played Zelda? Each game takes place in a different era, adds features, removes features, and does some absolutely ridiculous stuff.

I don't see how you can possibly defend Zelda and then chastise The Elder Scrolls for doing the exact same thing, we call this hypocrisy in the real world.

Please continue though... ignorance truly is bliss.

Too true, and i'm not all that bothered by the removal of attributes in Skyrim.

But removing SC, that's a terrible sin! :swear:

Yes, I certainly wouldn't mind seeing spell-crafting.

Not really a deal-breaker for me though.

I just wanna be able to create the char I WANT without having to go out and make a million useless potions, or summon a familiar and kill it countless times, just so my conjuration skillnis where I want it to be. That why I like the traditional point placing system, I could simply be who I wanted to be.
A better written story isint asking too much, is it?

You are levelling conjuration wrong.

Point placement is the ultimate form of simplification, I'm not quite sure what your point was.

» Sun Jun 10, 2012 10:38 am

Well said Socucious. Beth has abandoned the vets. This series isn't what it once was.

Computer gaming has been going the way of Hollywood. Battleship: The Movie. You know what I'm talking about. ONLY independent game studios are even allowed to take risks.
We will never get another TES game tailored to a fanbase who's first game was before an Xbox and on a PC.

make a million useless potions, or summon a familiar and kill it countless times, just so my conjuration skillnis where I want it to be.

I JUST posted a giant thread on leveling/grinding/scaling game design.