The forums have been a blaze with cries of foul play. Whether it be the removal of spellcrafting, attributes/stats, spells, or items, people are viewing this as a foreshadowing of the day when we get a TES facebook game. However to simply say that these features were removed is like saying that Bethesda did it because they were reaching an audience with sub normal IQ. As if in their raw form the features were only accessible, or understood by those with a masters in math and science. I'm here because it's a rainy Sunday, and I'm feeling extra introverted today.

Attributes:
Strength, Agility, Endurance, Intelligence, Willpower:
With the old system you had multiple attributes affecting health, stamina, and magicka. Each of the attributes listed above played a different role in determining your amount of "life force". The new system really just combines the effects into one simple classification. Magicka, Health, and Fatigue each contribute to your base amount (fatigue also represents carry weight) and also your amount of regeneration.

You also see Strength, and Willpower show up in the different perk trees. Most weapon skills allow you to increase how much damage you do with said weapon (the same was said for strength) and Willpower shows up in the different magic trees as there are perks to increase magicka regeneration, resistance, and absorption.

Luck:
Luck still persists throughout the game, however it's now represented it its true form (that being percentages). You find that the lockpicking tree has perks that give you a greater chance of finding gold, and treasure. Some trees like pickpocketing give you a higher chance of pickpocketing, and many weapon tries give you a chance to crit, paralyze, stagger, or damage avoidance. It was always said that luck affected you in everything you did, and that still persists within Skyrim.

Speed:
Gone, dead, M.I.A, and good riddance.

Personality:
Pretty much dead. The perks in the speech tree are pretty much all flat rates. There is no haggling, and persuasion attempts exist, but are numbered.

Spellmaking:
To be fair you somewhat make spells. While you cannot ultimately define the parameters. You do have the ability to influence the amount of spells damage through perks, and by dual casting. While there isn't as much flexibility as previous games it allows for spells to stay within the parameters set the by DEVELOPERS. You cannot freely change the damage value of weapons, and in a sense the removal of spellmaking was to make it more balanced. However, while this does ultimately hurt spells in a negative way it actually forces you to use the different magic schools, rather than focusing on one. I've played a s mage on master and it's a pain, however the same is true for my warrior. Basically any pure class is at a disadvantage on master because you need multipliers (like sneak, or magic) to help you defeat enemies.

While spellmaking doesn't have the flexibility of older games, it still allows you to influence the damage of spells. The game has also introduced (to my knowledge) one of the more fantasy, lore based setups for acquiring summons. The atronach forge is an interesting tool, and while it doesn't replace spellmaking it could be a much more interesting addition, especially if modders add a whole new set of summons through the forge.

Spells:
Chameleon:
Is part of the Sneak tree, as you can eventually walk around undetected when you pump enough points into sneak. One could argue that they would like a spell that allows you to remain undetected, however you still have invisibility and the ability to actually interact with objects should be for those well versed in sneaking.

Damage health/magicka/fatigue:
Part of the destruction school of magic as the fire also has a damage health effect, frost has a damage fatigue, and shock has a damage magicka. I honestly like this system better as fire would do lingering damage, cold would sap your energy, and also your dexterity. Lightning would... kill you? Magic doesn't exist in the real world so drawing correlations between the two is hard.

On top of that you also have the same effects with poisons.

Weakness to Frost, Shock, Fire:
Seen in poisons as well. Although this is somewhat useless as applying the poison can be difficult for pure mages.

Feather:
Perk in the lockpicking that gives a permanent 100 point boost to your carry weight. Ultimately isn't the same, but is actually more useful in the long run as it doesn't fade.

Damage armor:
Seen in a shout, along with damage health.

Damage Skill:
Not really seen as the skill itself has very little, to no influence on abilities, rather what you spend your points on influences your abilities. The closest thing to a damage skill would be disarm which puts the enemy on an uneven playing field.

Open:
Not really seen as a spell. The tower stone has the ability to open locks, however the minigame is easy enough and one could argue that the lockpicking tree itself renders open useless.

Absorb health:
Only seen in enchantments.

Magic shields:
Still seen in some form. Whether it be the wards, or altering the users flesh the ability to shield yourself from damage or magic still exists.

Levitation:
Gone. Allows for too much flexibility, adds the thread of game breaking problems, and would allow for the user to basically skip steps like going up 7,000 steps.

Summary:
I understand to some what I've said will seem like I'm grasping at straws. However, although the names of features have changed, the effects have not. Many of the spells, or features still persist in some form or another. Some play a reduced role and have since Oblivion. Some features have taken a back seat to player skill, and others have simply been taken out because they were either caused too many problems, or allowed for too much flexibility.

One could argue that the removal of some features allowed for less options, which is partially true. While some features have been removed, others have been replaced or changed. While some may prefer the older system, finding newer features to be useless, the same argument could be said but from the other side. Many older features were useless, while some of the newer features are more useful.

The most interesting idea interesting change is that the character is more fully realized. The character may not be simply represented by numbers dictating damage, carry weight, and success, they're represented better visually. Before when you were a master archer you merely did more damage, or had a higher chance of hitting a target. Now you have the ability to slow down time, move faster with an arrow drawn, and draw back a bow faster. If you're a sword and shield type player you have quicker reflexes with a shield that allows for you to essentially move faster than your opponent, you can also disarm and stagger your opponent.

While there are less weapons, each weapon type has unique capabilities. Swords can crit, Maces ignore armor, and Axes cause bleeding. Before weapons were really just different skins, and while this new system isn't super deep it allows for more interesting play.

Afterthoughts:
I already know hardly anyone will read this, nor will many respond. But my point in posting this thread is to hopefully show that the game isn't as shallow as many think. Your character feels, and looks, more like a warrior, mage, or archer than they did before. The problem is really that there is only so much numbers can represent, and I know people like numbers because they provide infinite depth, but they're somewhat dated. The combat in Skyrim is subtle, and to some they feel it is boring, or terrible. However there are a lot of subtle things that enhance the combat like time being slowed down, or different magic/weapons having different effects.

I'm one of the few on the forums that loves the new style of leveling and lack of attributes. I don't need to see a physical number on my screen telling me that I'm getting more powerful-- in Skyrim I can feel it.

The only thing (in my opinion) that makes Skyrim seem more... "shallow" than its predecessors is the lack of dialogue options. Giving me one option makes the game feel more linear than it should. Persuade and intimidate should be a regular occurrence as well.

Yeah, I disagree.
Its like saying a banana split is still a bananasplit while waving a banana peel around that has 'banana split' written on it.

Its a crying shame we are now left with only the derivatives of atributes, for reasons of intricacy, options, replayability and fun.
The character is less realised than ever, with the fewest ways to do so of any TES games.

I dont care much for lists like the above, where it is 'claimed' that things are still present while in no logical way they are even comparable and that are full of nonsense about why we cant have levitation. Dont care, I want it back.
No, the things you list are not 'still in the game', are they available as a fully customisable spell effect? No they are not. I dont care that 'axes do bleeding damage'. It is not the same, it is not a replacement.

In short, posts like these, where it is claimed the removal of complexity does not directly affect how interesting a game is, I dont care for very much because in my opinion its just such a crock.

I agree on pretty much everything, especially Spellcrafting.

I've never understood the desire for the return of the old system or anything like it. Anybody who boils things down to "many numbers=complex, few numbers=dumbed down" is just being ridiculous. If you're sitting there trying to figure out numbers and working the system for this or that, you aren't playing the game, you're playing the game system.

And I find it very, very weird that there are people who are mad that their numbers game isn't around any more. The game is not less complex. It just isn't. The mechanics are simpler to use without calculation - as they should be. Efficient leveling was a sign of a disease in the game - the disease being a condition where the game mechanics took over the game. Game mechanics should be in the background as much as possible, and Skyrim was a huge advance in this.

We have no customization over our spells. We have perks which is a leveling system. We do not have the open ended nature that spell creation gave us, its lunacy to say there is customizable spells in this system where there clearly is not.

Attributes could and should have been kept I. With a general perk system tied to them strength 50 carry 20 extra pounds. Agility 75 jump 15 feet higher. Speed maybe increase your sprint ability. We could have had so many options.

Then we should have a reputation system within the world so the world responds and reacts to what you do. Then there should be a faction based reputation system you should be expelled if you continue to screw them over.Also within the faction you should have certain skill requirements before you fan progress within a guild.

How about I boil it down to: "many features=interesting, fewer features=lame?"

I still think Removal of Attributes was the best thing to happen to TES. While they're good in theory, I found that in past TES games, they didn't offer enough "Bang", and I couldn't tell the difference between someone with 80 STR and 30 INT and 60 INT and 40 STR, really. The more direct system works much better for me.

Spellcrafting was a significant loss - However, I feel that the new magic system has more potential, though it feels unfinished.

Hence why u suggested there be general perks added alongside attributes, so that they have more of a punch. I have been advocating this for a while as I feel it would give us more options in creating our character.

The loss if spell making was a spine shattering blow to the magic system. The system I agree has potential, I also agree it feels unfinished. It feels like its the foundations to a system that could have worked given more spell effects and spell creation, but as it is its lacking in a big way.

I second this.

More is more, less is most certainly less

But we have plenty features in the game. Perks give you a good bit of control over your character, the armor and weapons look far better than previous TES games, and the fact that various armor and weapon types (iron, steel, dwarven, etc) mean that you can pretty much use what you like without giving up tons of combat power. Meaning, I have kept steel plate all the way to level 45 even though I could have had ebony a long time ago and could be rocking Daedric everything by now. I can use what fits my character without crippling myself in terms of combat power.

My character is far more distinct than my Oblivion characters. I've stuck with heavy armor, one handed, block and smithing for the most part - with some moderate skills (but few perks) in restoration, archery and sneak. My Oblivion character pretty much got to the point where he could do everything; I forget how many skills were pushed to or near max.

In short, Attributes in Oblivion were merely a paper system with little effect on things, from what I saw. Their presence and the leveling system rewarded doing the math (efficient leveling) and punished just playing the game (no efficient leveling).

The removal of the clunky class system means that you can play a character who does one thing for say ten levels, then changes entirely and starts a different career. If you did that in Oblivion you were forever hampered by whatever your original choice of class had been - permanently.

Bioware had a name for removing features and dumbing down Dragon Age 2 "innovation".Would be interesting to know what bethesdas id.

Yeah, but I never mean Oblivion when I talk about these things.
As far as Im concerned its where the rot started and the least said about it the better.

I disagree on the looking good, but what is most important that we now have less than a quarter of the apparel slots we once had.
Doesnt really matter that materials stayed roughly the same, I miss my katana, my spear, my throwing star.
There is simply a whole lot less game for my buck in Skyrim than in any previous TES games and as far as Im concerned this cannot be talked 'right' with statements like: 'but we still have health so we still have attributes.'

I find it sad that there is a civil war that you can't solve peacefully. Honestly I can't think of a time in prior TES's where you could play diplomat in a scenario that has potential for a lot of change.


I guess I'm confused on whether you want the effect, or the source of the effect. To me if frost damage damage fatigue, it's the same as just having the spell. The same goes for increasing health, fatigue, and magicka. Having more options doesn't create complexity, it only creates more options. Having the ability to create a spell that kills an enemy in one hit doesn't create more complexity. There is a threshold with spells that after a certain point it becomes over kill, the same goes for number of spells, and attributes. When there becomes an option for a smoother, slimmer version of a feature, the slimmer, smoother feature should always win out.

Wasn't it occam's razor that said the simpler solution should always win out? Granted that applies to ideas, but the principle can still be applied here.

As a last note I didn't bring up axes bleeding damage as a replacement, as it isn't replacing anything. It's a new feature that many forget about.

Attributes would play a reduced role if they were present, and if they were it would be almost redundant. You'd have to water down both perks, and attributes in order for both to be useful. The new perk system is really a more advanced idea of the "skill tree" system that RPGs have used for some time now. In that system the skill tree plays a BIG role in your characters strength.

Well, the thing is that I don't see having seven armor slots as more "complex" than having four. It just isn't. The number seven is not a more complex number than the number four. I don't wish for the armor consisting of seven pieces as opposed to four, or however many were in Morrowind. The only reason to care about that would be that it allows you to mix and match more - but mixing and matching just made people in Oblivion look like they were too [censored] to dress themselves properly. Really, what is the great and awesome point of being able to wear a Dwarven cuirass, Elven helmet, Ebony greaves, Daedric boots, iron gauntlets, and glass pauldrons?

To me the complexity of the game lies in the variety of (1) methods available in combat and (2) character styles available.

(1) As for the combat styles, I can't say anything about Morrowind since I never played it, but even the people who like it seem to admit that the combat was pretty lame. Oblivion's was largely dull as well, consisting of just standing toe-to-toe and hitting each other until one of you falls down. In Skyrim, I have yet to get tired of one-handed and block, but there's still the two-handed weapons, dual-wielding, sneak-oriented styles, archery (far better than in Oblivion) and magic, with all its various possible combinations with non-magical combat styles.

(2) And as for character styles, it all feels much more fun than Oblivion. The great visuals certainly help: not just the graphical specs but the art style is head and shoulders above Oblivion and Morrowind. My Nord warrior looks like a damn Viking, and I play him like that. The next character's gonna be more spread out, with Necromancy, Fire-destruction magic, smithing and enchanting, heavy armor and one-handed weapons., He'll be thoroughly evil and I'm gonna shoot for Daedric armor as soon as possible to give him that Sauron look.

I agree that it would be nice to have a little more variety in weapons, but it's quite easy to use mods that add quite a number of styles of weapons to the game. As for fundamentally different weapons, I never did get the unholy lust for spears that some people seem to burn with, but they might well be added to the game, so who knows?

Didn't fable 3 do some slimming and smoothing of it's own? So Skyrim should have one ranged damage spell, one melee weapon , and one method of healing. All three of these things scale with the player. Every weapon in the game has the exact same stats, enough so to be able to kill mooks and bosses at an appropriate speed.

There, much more slimmer and smoother than what Skyrim has! .

wait wait wait!!!

so there are people who think:

removal of ___(insert spellcrafting, attributes/stats, spells, or items)= TES Facebook game?

I am baffled by this. I love the change of system. But not once did I think "omg they removed some features... TES facebook game is innevitable now!"

please correct me if I misread the OP

I agree with the OP. Also, I have been reading your comments and I know you're talking about earlier releases than Oblivion, but WHAT exactly? It basically comes down to you saying Morrowind was the only good one. I mean...can you SERIOUSLY enjoy a game like Daggerfall or Arena? Those games reeked of quantity over quality.

I agree with this state, but with one caveat. If the smoother, slimmer version is smoother and slimmer because it has fewer options, making it less versatile or flexible, then it should never win out.

Certainly they would have a reduced role, they deal with what effects your character outside of your perks, and additional bonuses to your jumping height threw agility, and increased magic regeneration with willpower and extra intelligence points with the increase of intelligence and more carrying capacity with strength: all of these things are most certainly not redundant and they would add and give even more customizable options to our characters.

A pretty interesting read, and I had not considered many of those. Especially the blatantly obvious things like how elemental spells are actually dual-purpose damage attribute spells.

Pretty clever, well done, now...

I agree with pretty much all of that, but good luck getting anyone to take an objective look at this. Honesty or objectivity is anathema to some people on this forum.

God help you if you bring up lore in any fashion.

They're killing this series slowly but surely. Gone are the days of Arena, Daggerfall, and Morrowind. Oblivion is up there as well. Beth gutted and streamlined too much with Skyrim. Sad to see.

i liked the features but the whole thing about me having to max all my attributes and having to pay attention to what skills I level and power-leveling bothered me I wasn't playing the game I was boosting and cared obsessively about my stats.
now the perk system in my opinion needs to be improved the perks that increase damage and reduce magicka cost need to be removed and replaced by more unique perks and I say we have a general perks kinda like fallout for jumping height, running speed, ECT for more customization

Yes, those days are gone.

I would think it is called history....

I'm not trying to point you out individually, but, just because attributes were like that in Oblivion, doesn't mean they have to be like that in skyrim/.