Have YOU played the latest Zelda titles? Because THAT WAS MY POINT. There's a reason I picked Zelda as an example. They change up a bunch of [censored] in the Zelda series with each title AND everyone should be familiar with this. Now imagine if it was as jarring as TES II -> V is my damn point. Imagine if they did it so damn far you didn't recognize it as a Zelda title.

...And I do mean "Still sells" literally. They haven't changed the Zelda formula beyond recognition, and it still sells because people still expect it to be a Zelda game. You have no idea how jarring it is to see "TES" in "TES: Skyrim" to me.

Quit trolling and address my actual argument.

Spears, crossbows, and spells were all gutted in Oblivion. Also you cannot say that in order to include marriage they had to leave out all these things.

Why were spears so great? Did they work very differently than swords, axes, etc? Or were they just a different visual model, and it said "spears" on your character sheet instead of "blunt" or "one-handed"?

What was so great about crossbows? Did they work very differently than bows, or were they just a different visual model, and it said "crossbows" on your character sheet instead of "archery"?

Attributes - so then you're pissed there's no way to sit down and do math and game the system. I've never seen so many people crying over the loss of their beloved efficient leveling.

Spells? We don't have spells in Skyrim? Because I was pretty sure we do.

Spellcrafting - okay. I'm not sure it's the huge loss that some portray it to be, but sure, it's removed. Again, I get the impression with some people that they're pissed they've lost a way to break the game.

First person horse riding is the loss of a major mechanic? Really? This is something to cry about?

Portable alchemy - you really miss this? "Boy, it just svcks that I do alchemy at a table instead of lugging around those heavy pieces of alchemy equipment. That was so cool, carrying that stuff around."

Skills? I'm pretty sure we have skills. In fact I'm really sure we have skills.

Guilds? I'm pretty sure we have guilds. In fact I'm really sure we have guilds.

You sure you don't want to say we don't have swords or people or buildings in the game? Maybe trees?

Well we're all impressed at your old-school leet-ness. Seriously - things change. I know that for some people it just ain't an RPG or TES if they don't have a page full of numbers to pore over...

When I say spells, skills, and Guilds I mean the NUMBER of them. They continue to decrease.

He didn't say that. The sarcasm in his last phrase just went a few miles over your head.
And yes those things were gutted in Oblivion. But you might notice he has the Morrowind box art for his avatar? Guess which game his perspective is from for cut features?

My "troll thread" alarm is going off all over this. Between "hypocrisy", picking at some trivial anology component of my argument with an intentional 'misunderstanding' of the whole god damned point, and attacking blatant sarcasm as though it were meant literally. FailedToOpen can't be THAT dense to miss that sarcasm. No one is that dense.Didn't we JUST discuss that in the spear thread, where I told you that yes they did, and you said "That's stupid"?

Is more always better for skills? Or spells? Magic got rather dull in Oblivion for me. And holy [censored] I'm glad they fixed it so that you simply can't level skills by doing stupid [censored] over and over again:

Getting in sneak mode, pointing your character at a wall and hitting "constant run" to level athletics and sneak,
Running around pointlessly casting light spells to level Illusion.
Casting summoning spells as you walked along to level Summoning.
And [censored] jumping constantly in order to level athletics,

Good GOD I'm glad they've started closing those exploit loopholes.

But as for the skills, they really seem about right to me. The skills that are gone were largely pointless. People just don't think anything that was in Morrowind should be removed.

Yes, because Wind Waker in no way removed or whats that word everyone likes to use?

Oh, right, 'dumbed down' the Zelda series in any way.

Besides, this isn't the Zelda forum... no one deserves to visit that black hole of depression and thought. I'd rather go to the Jersery Shore and have a philosophical debate with Snookie or Kim freaking Kardashian than continue talking about Zelda. Is Metroid next?

You're obstinence is quite refreshing, I mean I've NEVER considered or read anything like your post it's so uber original, especially the part about how terrible everything in Skyrim is when compared to prior games.

Carry on.

I lol'd

Skyrim is an absolutely outstanding game, and I look at the leveling / perk system as a step in the right direction to revolutionize RPG's. I only hope Bethesda keeps the current system intact and builds upon it in the future. The biggest downfall of Skyrim is the lack of dialogue options and consequences. NPC's not reacting to anything I say or do takes away from the immersion.

But seriously, this game rocks my socks.

They owe consideration to the old Morrowind players? Despite the fact that new players vastly outnumber the "vets" as you call them?

Quit trolling.

Get off the Zelda anology.

Attack my ACTUAL ARGUMENT.

Or GTFO.

Oh! So you CAN address my actual argument? You've heard it before? Then what IS your actual counter argument?
And I didn't say Skyrim was terrible. I said it isn't the TES I know and loved.

Play Daggerfall and try to tell me this series hasn't been dumbed down.

Also, you can still sneak into a corner in Skyrim and raise your skill.

All the weapons and spells and the lost spell types and the loss of spell creation took away options and gave us less on how we choose to play our characters. They have taken away choices and restricted what we can use.

I liked the portable apparatus and I liked how there was different tiers of the apparatus.

The attribute system could have been retooled to work with the perk system and the skills.

The guilds should have been longer and there should have been requirements to progress and there should have been a guild reputation system in place.

Yes, if you remain unseen and if they would normally be able to see you if you weren't sneaking. In other words, you have to actually be sneaking near somebody. In Oblivion you could go in an empty room, close the door, and level your sneak with Constant-Run. Not so in Skyrim; in Skyrim you have to actually be sneaking around people.

I don't remember Morrowind being complex at all, unless you thought all those fancy attribute numbers added complexity. The only thing I miss about Morrowind and Oblivion is the dialogue options (and guild systems), that's about it.

I repeat:

What was so great about crossbows, for example? Did they work differently than bows to a significant degree? If not, they were a cosmetic difference, no more. Same thing with spears. Did they work the same as swords, except they had a different animation and it said "spear skill" on your character sheet instead of "sword skill"? Or were they actually different?

Because if it was just a cosmetic difference, then it had no effect on "how we play our characters".

Did my post say Daggerfall or Morrowind?

The guild requirements were based upon attributes in Morrowind, and I haven't played Oblivion in ages. Honestly there are some new features in Skyrim that allows for some more unique play.

Normally I don't like to attack people but you're a joke bro.

They actually weren't even in their time. It's in comparison to Skyrim.

It's like a yo-momma so fat joke. "Skyrim is so streamlined, Skyrim TES fans think Morrowind was "complex"! Ahahhahah!"Yes. Bows required you to pull them back fully for max damage. Spamming arrows rapidly did little damage. Crossbows did max damage every shot and could be fired instantly. I actually preferred them over bows for that.

With that argument, we might as well reduce the game to one handed and two handed swords, because the difference between swords, axes and maces are largely cosmetic. Yes, they did add some different effects to them this time around, but they really are quite minimal and they really don't have much impact on my gameplay.

The cosmetic difference matter for those that want there characters to use said item. Yes I want my crossbow back and so do many others the crossbow and spear are the two most requested attack items. It did not change gameplay it was there if we wanted to use its what is so wrong with that, nothing. I want simple things added back in. Now can you answer what your major issue with those items are?

With what you are saying we should not have swords and axes and maces.

More is more, less is less.

He thinks skirmishing with spears is dumb, because that's not how it worked in real life. See the recent spear thread.

True, but at least they actually have a deeper affect on the gameplay than just choice.

You brought up Zelda, not me...

I also don't attack posts, its juvenile and anti-intellectual.

Would it help that I think Skyrim is perhaps the best all around installation of TES? It certainly has its low points, but when compared to Arena, Daggerfall and the combat in Morrowind... it's on an entirely different level in my opinion. Though people having opinions or points of view that differ from yours is probably a little disconcering I imagine.
But please carry on the attacks, this is becoming simply too epic and ironic for words.

You misread my post and then call me the joke? Lol.