Seriously Bethesda- WTF were you all thinking? : V - Skyrim

» Sat May 12, 2012 6:42 am

Lol, apparently the mana regen +% boosts don't work during combat.
....whhhhhhy

They do - they're just reduced. I know because I have equipment that raises my regeneration by 200%, and I notice the difference in combat if I take them off.

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:08 am

You're taking out of context the functionality of the skills. Honestly, I don't like playing the pure warrior type, but I do like playing a battlemage type though. I prefer playing pure a mage most of the time. But, why should magic be rewarded the same strength of damage as a sword/mace/axe. Remember, certain enemies are supposed to be able to resist magic spells and even heal themselves. A sword pierces the body, so, why shouldn't it do more damage. Have you used a magic staff yet? Some of those are more powerful than the hand-helds. Honestly, I think the balancing is pretty good overall.

But the problem is that destruction doesn't do ANY damage at the higher levels. It's utterly useless. Even if it did slightly less damage than a sword or axe, that would be better than no damage. The whole point is that in every Elder Scrolls game prior, we were able to play as mages. Now, the game they told us we could play any way we want, we are being forced to use melee weapons and be "Sword-spells" rather than actual "Mages." Think of it this way: You see mages all throughout the game who don't use melee weapons. They just cast ward and ice shard over and over and one hit kill you. However, once you're level 40 or so, you HAVE TO use a melee weapon with heavy armor, while those same mages are just dual casting and still owning you because your destruction magic doesn't do any damage.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:02 am

There are just TOO MANY points I can make that say mages overall are underpowered compared to warriors that I can write a book on it. Here are just a few

1. Destruction never gets stronger.

2. Mage spells are either too weak or cost too much mana to sustain in a fight.

3. Mage runs out of mana, has to run. Warrior runs out of stamina, continues to pound heavy damage.

4. Mages do less damage than warriors AND are 10-100x less durable in battle.

5. Master level destruction spells take 5 seconds to cast, cost too much mana, and don't get stronger after you get them at level 50 while monsters get stronger.

6. Warrior late game can have insanely strong legendary armor and weapons that do 500 damage per regular swing without power swing and tank like a god, mages have the 100 damage master spell that takes 5 seconds to cast when they are vulnerable.

7. Warriors can faceroll through the game with 2 skills and two hack buttons. Mages need to constantly switch spells, run around, drink potions, use shouts, hide behind walls and range bosses for 30 minutes, use lydia, ect just to get by.

8. Robes with magic regen/cost reduction is nowhere near as good as the armor that makes warriors unstoppable late game.

9. Warriors with heavy armor and weapons can whip out their flame spell anytime and do as much damage as a mage while able to tank so much more, mages who want to fight with swords end up getting [censored].

10. I have yet to find a pure mage at any level able to complete the main quest line, I see warriors level 20ish complete it easily.

11. A TON of people complain about destruction being underpowered and mages in general compared to warriors. No one complains about warriors be underpowered, only overpowered.

12. This is a TES game. Players should be able to play how they want. If they want to focus on destruction without much help in other magic fields they should be able to do that. Game favors warriors heavily to faceroll through the game.

13. In even decently balanced games, warriors can always tank more damage while mages do much more damage and can nuke from afar. Mage destruction spells are mid-close range spells and can't nuke while warriors do more damage. In league of legends we see spell casters like ryze who die instantly and move slowly but can nuke so well and does more damage than tanks like malphite who are very hard to kill but barely do any damage. Imagine if malphite did more nuke damage than ryze. Who in their right mind would want to play ryze then? Everyone would want to play malphite. Same thing is going on here. People play the more balanced characters and like to play by what is better. This is an elder scrolls game and people should be able to play how they like but instead are forced to be melee or struggle through as a mage.

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:26 am

So 1 Hand/2 Hand damage increases with every level it goes up.

Destruction doesnt increase with every level.

Damage stays the same while every mob in the game increases damage and health.

You must be really dense to not see how thats broken.

Mages can stun lock enemies, preventing them from fighting back, taking zero damage, and if well geared, using little to no magicka to do so. They can do this all from extreme range.

Warriors have to get face to face with all its enemies, pretty much a sure thing they'll take damage.

Sounds equally broken when you reverse the game mechanics the other way too.

Why does every spell have to do 5000 damage if you can stun lock any enemy in the game, for free, from range. Hell, you can do it to groups of enemies if you get them close together.

Also, I'd like to add, the BEST spells in the game aren't the master level 100 damage spells.

They are the WALL spells.

50 damage per SECOND. They are instant cast, and every enemy in the game outside of Dragons, are easy to hit with it.

You can spin the floor around you, and stand in place and heal and watch everything around you die. Please learn to play.

» Sat May 12, 2012 9:50 am

try to shout inbetween spells, i have unlocked two stages of this ice-shout, which freezes enemies and gives them a dot, the rest is done with fire mostly especially with doublecasting which makes the spells stronger, but so far i use it only as supplement being more the dual-wielding sneaker... i open the fight with a hidden shot, let them come near, shout, and finish with fire... also some fury is in order while hidden, so they decimate themselves first... you CANT run into a mob with blazing guns as a mage

» Fri May 11, 2012 8:47 pm

I don't know how many times my Hunter(who has only perks in Light Armor, One Handed, Archery, and Sneak) has gotten killed, but I don't care. It just makes me all the more careful the next time I try to sneak by that Saber Tooth or Bear.

Edit: It's all about tactics by the way. For the quest in Whiterun where I had to get a mammoth tusk, I lured the mammoth into a road with two short wall on either side. I would shoot at it until it got close to me, then jump over the walls and keep shooting. He never touched me, although it did take 5 minutes to kill him.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:30 am

Honestly, have some of you never played these games - the ability to be flexible in a build makes it so much fun. In OB, I created purposely gimped characters just for the challenge and fun of figuring out what other skills to use. If you want to get a mindset like an MMO spec type build, then maybe a magic character in this game just isn't for you.

I am playing a pure mage (beyond the first few levels, where I was using whatever weapons and armor were handy). Having a blast, primarily destruction but Alteration and Conjuration are merging together. I am being challenged at my level, sometimes dying, but learning.

No build is perfect, and if you feel a strong need to min-max, maybe you need to push your comfort level a bit and just figure out how to have fun with the builds.

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:04 am

I thought destruction does scale! My flames began at 8 dps and now it's 12!

As i have leveled up my destruction skill which is currently 75+ my spells powers have increased too.

I'm level 26 at the moment, is there something i'm missing?

» Fri May 11, 2012 11:37 pm

Great post, but it is entirely too reasonable, logical, and factual.
I'm betting 100$ ganen and xeth zenn3k and the gang are going to misinterpret this post. These posters do not like these three qualities. They live in a bubble, ignore math, and ignore the actual argument being made.

Thank you for this; i'm glad my words are appreciated. I'm not worried if a few forum trolls don't hear the message. I think a lot of people get the message (as evidenced by the sheer volume of destruction threads going right now). My words are aimed and creating a large enough noise that Bethesda might take notice and make the neccasary adjustment. I don't think its unreasonable.

No, you can't. You'd know this if you listened to those who are high level, or were a high level mage yourself. Facts are facts, people. ffs this is getting mind numbing, its like im at a republican convention

This is true. It is basic math. The highest level destruction spell, according to the wiki is 150dps. That is firestorm. Add your 50% dmg perk and you have 225dps. This is the most damage you will ever do with a destruction spell. This is best case, using an AoE and it is a fire spell. Assuming your target is surrounded by allies and is resistant to fire, you have to fall back on a single spell target, which will put you around 142dps

For a combat skill, this is pathetic. It is by far the weakest combat skill in the game.

Later in the game when they're going up against creatures with 2k-3k hp, and people begin to see the problem. It takes them over a minute to kill a basic non-boss enemy that they could have taken down in 3-4 seconds with a sword. When the enemy can kill you with 1-2 hits, a full minute is a lifetime. Boss enemies are nearly impossible. This is why those folks are falling back on traditional combat skills or letting their summon do the work for them; Destruction simply doesn't hold up.

It is simply a balance issue, and not the end of the world to fix.

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:10 am

Warrior
Sword
Shield block
Armor skill

Mage:
Destruction
Conjuration or illusion
Alteration

now conjuration or illusion acts as a shield in that it diverts attention form you (either through summons or mind control)

High end Alteration can MASSIVELY increase your armor rating if you're wearing not normally wearing armor, Conjuration can also cover for destruction as your "weapon" if you really want it to, but if you go that far why make a mage in the first palce?

now i didn't add restoration or enchanting to this list, both are generally usefull to everyone and as such don't belong in any particular branch.

----

now on destruction: 60 destruction and 3 perks invested will allow you to gain a 50% damage increase, with one element, add this to dual casting for another perk and i'd dare say you're getting competetive, my swordmage with a damage rating of 34 before armor, with the 50% and dualcast increase your low tier destruction spell (comparable to a steel weapon) would cause 24 before resists.
She is dependant on stamina, vs you being dependant on Mana, so there really isnt much difference there, yes i can continue without my stamina, but power attacks really mean the world to a warrior, and no stamina means no pwoer attacks, which means no stagger which = me dead.

now at 4 perks and 60 rating in my weapon i can have +80% damage, or +60% and a dual wield or weapon specialization perk (the prior would give up my trusty shield/spell hand though)

What happens when i run into a giant? Splat.
What happens when i cast a +60 armor spell before i run into a giant? Splat
I am level 24 with 260 hp in epic orc armor with wielding a (superior)dwarven mace, and it takes giants and mammoths three strikes to utterly decimate me, three strikes between which i am lucky if i can get one heal off, or take mroe than 20% of their HP from them, healing potions just don't cut it, and lydia tends to get crushed during those fights as well,.

but... if i take on said giant (or a mammoth) by a rock formation and use my completely unskilled novice frost spell with some smart jumping around, i can easily take them on, though the battle takes forever, but again using a non perked frost spell, natural regeneration and some jumping around coupled with my grade 2 unrelenting force shout.
(did this when grabbing a mammoth tusk for ysandre or whatever her name is, the npc that teaches a rank or two of speech to you in return)

Destruction scales by the use of more powerfull spells, which requires a minor investment of perks to reduce their mana cost significantly, if you're using the novice spells at level 40 then you're doing something wrong, that would compare to a warrior still using steel at that level, not at all usefull.

---

also remember if you're wearing light or heavy armor and focusing mainly on spellcasting, you won't have the huge mana regeneration benefit that most caster cloth in the world grants, this impedes your casting ability significantly, and while it doens't increase your initial dps, that amount of regeneration does pay off.

the bottom line is, a repetition of what a lot of other people have said:
don't just focus on one skill, TES never rewarded anyone for that, you need a skill set of 3-5 skills to really make a well rounded character, which ones? that is entirely up to you.

I am a warrior and the only giant I ever killed was by hiding inside a tower the giant couldn't get by and using my bow, it took a while but it's doable. The only mammoth I ever killed was because I kept turning with the mammoth and never allowed my face to leave it's ass while hitting it with my sword. It wasn't easy but still very possible.

And honestly, no one cares about killing giants or mammoths. I facerolled through the main questline with my warrior no problem. With my mage, I'm having all sorts of trouble at level 15 even.

» Sat May 12, 2012 1:36 am

I am a warrior and the only giant I ever killed was by hiding inside a tower the giant couldn't get by and using my bow, it took a while but it's doable. The only mammoth I ever killed was because I kept turning with the mammoth and never allowed my face to leave it's ass while hitting it with my sword. It wasn't easy but still very possible.

And honestly, no one cares about killing giants or mammoths. I facerolled through the main questline with my warrior no problem. With my mage, I'm having all sorts of trouble at level 15 even.

I killed a Giant as a pure destruction mage, really easily.

» Fri May 11, 2012 7:41 pm

I thought destruction does scale! My flames began at 8 dps and now it's 12!

As i have leveled up my destruction skill which is currently 75+ my spells powers have increased too.

I'm level 26 at the moment, is there something i'm missing?

You purchased the "Augmented Flames" perk twice, making flame spells do 50% more damage. This is still impotent past level 35 when every enemy starts having like 1000 or more health with all spell resistance and the ability to one hit kill you.

» Fri May 11, 2012 9:11 pm

Whaaaat? Why should magic be rewarded the same strength? Because it's called balance? I'm... out of words. Every damage dealing trees should be at least remotely similar in their damage capacities. What's the point of playing destruction if your damage is so low that your minions or your freshly summoned bow will outperform?

Read these ratrios for spells and note how they ramp up with the more pwoerful spells, with added perks:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Destruction
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Fireball#Fireball

Rewarding a small increase to damage effects for melee weapons isn't a bad thing and is balanced, because it rewards the melee player for going in head first. There's a balance there. Here's one I did that just took my breath away. I killed my third dragon on Adept using Blizzard and healing myself with potions, I used ice spikes, while the blizzard took down 1/2 of his health. I could chug magicka potions to keep it up. Now, allow just a sword, even if enchanted go in there and do that, and it will take longer.

» Sat May 12, 2012 4:26 am

Read these ratrios for spells and note how they ramp up with the more pwoerful spells, with added perks:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Destruction
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Fireball#Fireball

Rewarding a small increase to damage effects for melee weapons isn't a bad thing and is balanced, because it rewards the melee player for going in head first. There's a balance there. Here's one I did that just took my breath away. I killed my third dragon on Adept using Blizzard and healing myself with potions, I used ice spikes, while the blizzard took down 1/2 of his health. I could chug magicka potions to keep it up. Now, allow just a sword, even if enchanted go in there and do that, and it will take longer.

Magic requires the use of a much more limited resource, though. Being out of stamina does not reduce a warrior into a two shotted sack of meat.

» Sat May 12, 2012 10:56 am

I don't think that you're being fair to my original post. Warriors aren't complaining about anything because weapons are decidedly powerful and effective at dispatching foes. Destruction magic, as everyone and their dog is attesting to, is not.

Go fight a dragon with nothing but a daedric sword, no armor, no shield, no restoration or any other skill other than one handed. Guess what will happen, you'll die. Just like what would happen if you fought a dragon with nothing but a master destruction spell at level 100, you'll still die. One skill is not sufficient for taking out powerful creatures, no matter what you want to roleplay. If you want to be a beast with destruction without using any other skills then just bump your game down to easy. However, it won't do any good on Adept or above.

My original post was an exageration, yes, but it was the same basic principal. The "I want to be a beast with one skill, but I can't because the game won't let me." principle.

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:03 am

This thread is full of idiots and illiterate children who don't realize level 15 does not equal level 40. They also don't seem to realize that no one is saying "make destruction be a one hit kill skill that's all I have to use." Peace out.

» Sat May 12, 2012 7:37 am

Most of the people complaining about this are trying to play a pure mage only using one school of magic (Destruction). Obviously this will not work, as you provide no means of protection. Some argue that Warriors/Thieves don't die repetitively. There's a reason for that. With being a warrior, you not only get a sword/axe/etc, but armor. A defense. Same with thieves. If you're playing a pure mage, you will most likely be wearing robes, which offer no defense. To effectively play a pure mage, one must provide himself/herself with a means of protection: potions, defensive magic, or armor. Simply throwing on some robes and blasting things with fire doesn't work - you have to be able to adapt your strategy with each opponent. This does not make the magic system bad, it just means that you don't know how to take advantage of it.

Try adding Illusion or Restoration, or wearing enchanted armor. Even investing some perks into Alchemy to make a large supply of potions would help

» Fri May 11, 2012 6:55 pm

Read these ratrios for spells and note how they ramp up with the more pwoerful spells, with added perks:
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Destruction
http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Fireball#Fireball

Rewarding a small increase to damage effects for melee weapons isn't a bad thing and is balanced, because it rewards the melee player for going in head first. There's a balance there. Here's one I did that just took my breath away. I killed my third dragon on Adept using Blizzard and healing myself with potions, I used ice spikes, while the blizzard took down 1/2 of his health. I could chug magicka potions to keep it up. Now, allow just a sword, even if enchanted go in there and do that, and it will take longer.

The above post lacks insight about high levels, and shouldn't be taken into consideration if trying to learn about high level mages.

Most of the people complaining about this are trying to play a pure mage only using one school of magic (Destruction).

This has been constantly denied.

You guys really need to learn how to understand what high level mages are talking about. Circular arguments are no fun

» Sat May 12, 2012 4:43 am

Go fight a dragon with nothing but a daedric sword, no armor, no shield, no restoration or any other skill other than one handed. Guess what will happen, you'll die. Just like what would happen if you fought a dragon with nothing but a master destruction spell at level 100, you'll still die. One skill is not sufficient for taking out powerful creatures, no matter what you want to roleplay. If you want to be a beast with destruction without using any other skills then just bump your game down to easy. However, it won't do any good on Adept or above.

My original post was an exageration, yes, but it was the same basic principal. The "I want to be a beast with one skill, but I can't because the game won't let me." principle.

A warrior with 1 or 2h mastery and no armor perks can still beat the main questline and many quests. A mage with only destruction can't.

Armor/weapon does not equal spells. Spells are annoying to switch between for a mage and mage has to run around a lot with no mana. warrior charges into 10 man mob and facerolls everyone.

» Fri May 11, 2012 10:48 pm

Magic requires the use of a much more limited resource, though. Being out of stamina does not reduce a warrior into a two shotted sack of meat.

True, but then again, destruction and conjuration spells are of the offensive type. Since mages are inherently weak when wearing their garbs, they are supposed to work away from the fray. The more powerful spells works very well when combined, especially between skills. Look at some of the more powerful staves, they can be very good in long range magic.

» Sat May 12, 2012 5:01 am

If you're gonna have a game that gives you freedom, you're gonna have the freedom to FAIL, too

» Sat May 12, 2012 2:26 am

My original post was an exageration, yes, but it was the same basic principal. The "I want to be a beast with one skill, but I can't because the game won't let me." principle.

It is a good thing that no one appears to be advocating using only one skill then.

Read my posts above (specifically #111), and you'll see what the issue is.

» Fri May 11, 2012 8:19 pm

True, but then again, destruction and conjuration spells are of the offensive type. Since mages are inherently weak when wearing their garbs, they are supposed to work away from the fray. The more powerful spells works very well when combined, especially between skills. Look at some of the more powerful staves, they can be very good in long range magic.

"Can" be, or "are"? If you haven't used them yourself, unlike US, then don't post about it man. Really disrespectful and foolish

» Sat May 12, 2012 8:50 am

I am also having a hard time with my full magicka mage.

My problem is that the way the dungeons are set out it's often impossible for me to avoid getting gang banged by multiple enemies at close range.

There are so many dungeons that require you to "trigger" monsters into jumping out into your face. Most of these melee monsters can 1 or 2 hit me. At lower levels destruction magic was effective, but now it's like a secondary skill. Although I still get my [censored] kicked by mages firing ice bolts at me and staggering me with lighting. But when I use it doesn't seem very effective.

I wish runes were more effective and had more variety of effects, and I wish you could use more of them. And I wish I had more crowd control skills. It's the 1 hit instant deaths that really annoy me.

Spells take too long to cast for what they do, especially in these dungeons where everything is so close and you have melee guys sprinting at you down corridors with their power attacks. Also i think melee power attacks are OP compared to magic. It's kinda stupid that I can have someone run over a fire rune, throw a few fireballs in their face, and yet they still are just sprinting forward the whole time and then 1 hit me with their axe. Think fireballs should push enemies back more and I think that frost should slow them down more and lightning should stagger them more. Melee guys seem completely unhindered by all the magic I cast at them, just keep sprinting towards me. I need more skills for keeping mobs away from me. Shouts are fine but they take way too long to recharge for them to be very useful.

Conjuring a mob is basically the main mage skill it seems, which is OK... but kinda boring. And I wish I had more skills to buff Lydia so she wouldn't get owned so easily.

Also, I wish I could still do something with no mana instead of having to switch out to a weapon. I find myself in the menu changing skills/ weapons so much... it's really annoying.

» Fri May 11, 2012 9:04 pm

I dont see the issue here, not evrything is about 'dps'.
Most warriors if not all (legit) warriors also have to rely on restoration and block to stay in the fight, so why do mages demand that they should be able to just stick with destruction to do evrything by facemelting npc's before they could reach them ?

Warriors should use smithing, mages should use alchemy and both benefit from enchanting.
So get potions that reduce target's resistances (or that makes them more vulnerable, cant remember exactly), enchant your gear to reduce mana cost and increase mana regen.
Use a defensive magic school pick conjuration or illusion like warriors also have to lvl their armor and blocking (wich is tedious and takes a very long time).

Mages are supposed to be smart and wise, so stop trying to block a battleaxe with your face and atleast try to act smart.
It's the equivalent of using a naked khajit with unarmed only and then complain that your not 'viable' at higher lvl...