I think that if you play the game without doing any power-leveling, and just concentrating on the quests and casual exploration, you should be done with pretty much all the content by level 50.
I don't think the guys at Bethesda were thinking of power-levelers when designing quests and enemies.

Taking your character past level 50 in the vanilla game requires considerable skill-grinding, and can be counterproductive, unless your goal is to create an overpowered character.
And yes, I took my first character all the way to level 81 without cheating. I just did it for the fun of it, but by level 70 it was already ridiculously overpowered.

What other people have said about DLCs is true, IMO: Bethesda usually releases DLCs specifically targeted to higher-level players/characters.
So it was with Bloodmoon and Tribunal for Morrowind; Shivering Isles for Oblivion; and the four DLCs for Fallout 3.

The DLC(s) for Skyrim might be intended to take your character past level 50 while providing balanced enemies, quests and challenges.

So that left the developers with two options:

Block leveling to level 50; which doesn't do much.

Or allow it go to 81, so that those people who want the 'high score' can get it and enjoy it. Saying that they've put in the time to level up ALL the skills. It's simply more options, some utilize them, some don't.

I don't favour the phony type of scaling used in some RPGs where you work to obtain a particular type of type of weapon/armor/power and then "magically" your enemies end up with the same and/or scale up with you.

However, throwing in a few new "challenging" enemies that you don't see below certain levels ... and I mean "new", not some super draugur overlord type thing ... would help to keep the combat aspect of the game more interesting at higher levels, as well as adding an "incentive" to achieve the higher levels for those who are into doing so.

I personally don't have a problem being over-powered because if I was a real "adventurer", I would be doing whatever I could to ensure that my chances of being killed are minimal. I wouldn't be looking for a "challenge" ... I'd be looking for treasure or whatever else it was I wanted to achieve from my "adventuring" with a minimal chance of dying along the way.

Come to think of it ... if I was smart, I'd just pay someone else to do the adventuring for me and stay at home ... but, that's another story.

I don't have a problem with the "crappy treasure in a adept lock box" thing because it reflects reality, i.e., I could have a chest with the best lock in the world on it but, doesn't mean I have to store something of high value in it ... or if I did, it could be something that had value only to me, e.g., the "iron dagger" that one of my ancestors used to slay a tyrant and has been handed down in my family ever since.

And from the breaking into the box perspective, well, if it's a crappy treasure, I've still improved my lock picking skill in working to get the box open.

With my current character, I've just been exploring around and not really noticing what level I'm at ... and in this respect the combat is secondary so if I can get a one hit kill, it's fine with me.

If I really wanted an ongoing combat challenge, I'd have stuck with iron armor and left it at that.

Out of curiosity, at what level would you be able to max out every perk if you were able to obtain the five levels of skill training that you're allowed per character level?

Actually it leaves them with three options:

Add enemies that go past level 50. Because, please realize, in games that utilize the "high score" incentive they do increase the difficulty as it goes along. Tetris continues to get faster and faster post level 20 to make getting a high score more challenging.

But again as someone else mentioned, a portion of the skills are noncombat.

If I'm level 50 and I fight a level 50... Draugr of some kind, wouldn't that be a bit easier than if I'm level 80 due to leveling speech and lockpicking and I'm fighting a level 80 Draugr? I think it's plenty balanced. If every single skill translated directly to combat and power like in most games, then sure, add more enemies to keep it balanced. But past level 50, when skills hit 100, you can't really get any stronger. You can get good at a wider variety of combat skills, but no better in any single skill.

And this is why removing Attributes is bad.

I can level up my Health, Magicka or Stamina all I want.

But I can't touch my Strength and therefore my damage is capped once I hit 100 in whatever offensive Skill I am using combined with the best gear I could ever hope to have or make.

The problem we are discussing is that it gives a false sense of incentive and a false sense of achievement. Skills that do not relate to combat factoring into the player's total level is a grand and fine way to diversify leveling... if you give the player the continued ability to grow stronger no matter what their Skills say. The achievement to 81 is meaningless because not all the skills that factor into 81 are factored into the PvE of the game, as you have said, because of the lack of Attributes. If I have maxed out all my combat skills by 50, let's even say I maxed out all weapon, armor and magic skills at 50, then leveling Speechcraft which then causes my character to level up does not actually advance my character as a whole but rather just in Speechcraft and either Magicka, Health or Stamina.

In past games, and other games in the RPG setting, if I leveled up Lockpicking and thus gained a character level I could dump an extra stat point into Strength, Luck, Health, etc, etc thus affecting my character as a whole and not just in one skill and one stat.

You never grow stronger as a whole once you hit level 50, but you can continue to level up. That's a stupid notion.

Remember Broken Steel in FO3. Those NPC's, perk and level increase that been introduce into that game broke it.

That's why you learn from that mistake and fix it, not just remove it.

On my first character, I had completed the main quest, as well as all of the major faction quests before I reached level 25. The length and detail of the quests and thier plots were extremely disappointing, but there was much left to explore, and that was what I really bought Skyrim for, anyways. Most of the Daedric quests were lackluster and short, and the only reason I hadn't completed them before level 35 was that a few required a minimum level. I continued to simply explore and do every quest that came my way, and at level 50 there was absolutely nothing left to do in the game other than grind my remaining skills.

Skyrim is extremely easy, and once you're level 15, this will become apparent, as even the hardest difficulty does not provide a challenge at this level. Everything about this game is a cakewalk, and the only reason anyone reaches a high level before completing everything the game has to offer is due to how ridiculously quickly you level-up.

IMO, Skyrim would have been much better if the Expert difficulty was the baseline difficulty, and if the player leveled slower, and to a lower maximum of 25, gaining more MP/HP/SP per level, rather than leveling more.

I'm confused what you're saying. I'm overpowered at level 46. The only thing I don't 1-shot are ancient dragons. Maybe cuz i'm putting all my eggs in one basket, but how else am I supposed to be an archer?

If you don't have the time to fix it, or you haven't worked out a way that you're happy with, you'd remove it.

People seem to think that Bethesda are these design demigods that should be able to figure out everything instantly. They had 3 years to make one of the most complex games that exist. They didn't have time to do everything, and when it came to what to do with the things they didn't like or complete, they had to spend the time to figure out that too.

Then people say 'Oh well, why didn't they just do this?' And well, it isn't that simple. I used to have such a biased disparity towards game developers too. Thinking there was always a blatant and obvious way to improve something, but it simply isn't that simple. (No pun intended) I've learned through modding just how much one little thing can affect the entire project, and you really have to think things through very very thoroughly. It's a miracle that they got as much right as they did in a game this complex.

I just hit level 50 with my one and only character. About 250 hours of play.
Haven't done any DB, thieves guild, civil war or gotten very far in the main quest.
I only belong to the College of Winterhold and maybe something else. Haven't joined any major political faction yet.
Still have a large list of major and misc. quests on my list.

Apparently my play style isn't very fast.... Mostly wandering around. Get distracted a lot when I start doing a quest and will ramble off that track to see something else.

BTW LOVE Fallout 3. Couldn't stand New Vegas for very long.

Different strokes for different folks.

Once you get a combat damage skill to 100 and get it perked out, even with using Smithing to improve a weapon to "Legendary" status, ( that is another thing, for another discussion. I made several test comparisons in another thread entitled Smithing, about that) you are doing your max damage. It doesn't matter if that is at level 46 or 81.

You are still doing that same amount of damage. The same amount of damage to the same enemy at level 50 and level 81. Be you a Mage, Warrior, Assassin or any combination there of.

People clamming that they are becoming OPd because of reaching higher levels beyond 50 is bogus. And it has nothing to with "powerleveling" or "grinding". You are leveling when you do that anyway. AND guess what? So are the enemies. You might get a little ahead in the scaling for a few levels, but that will eventually catch up with you.

It's always easier to see where someone else went "wrong" ... though there may be no consensus in this regard ... than it is to do it right yourself.

And as the old saying goes, hindsight is a wonderful thing.

People also seem to think that Bethesda only has as much experience as an indie development company that just started.

They are professionals, seriously, they are professionals. I am a game designer, I know how effing tough the process can be, I know the man hours, I know the time constraints, I know all that. But you're trying to tell me that a company that has been around since 1986 is going to rely on the "we didn't have time" angle for balancing out one of the biggest portions of their fifth flagship title? That's like saying that Nintendo still has to work out the kinks of making Mario jump correctly.

Listen, I love Bethesda and have a huge amount of respect for them and for what they have done for the industry I so love much being a part of as a gamer and a designer. But they plain svck at balancing games. We saw that in Oblivion when everything scaled against the player, where lowly Bandits would be walking around in full Daedric gear. We saw that in Oblivion where Chameleon broke the damn game because they didn't limit the maximum amount of Chameleon you could achieve and didn't put in any means for enemies to deal with it.

It's like you're trying to feed me this bit that they are some novice designers that go "oh hey! this would be cool!" and never think of the repercussions it will have on gameplay and balance. They think about that ish, they are paid to do so. But their design decision of "we'll let the player go 31 levels above everything else" is a bad one, period, because it makes those 31 levels meaningless and gives the player a false sense of incentive. It's exactly what BioWare did with Mass Effect 3's ending. All that work, all those choices leading to a meaningless end. BioWare thought it would be good, thought people would enjoy it. Companies can think wrong.

They aren't demigods or gods, so don't treat them like it. "They just didn't have the time or couldn't figure out how to make it work." They've been making the same franchise for 18 years, you'd think they'd know how to make a level scaling system work. It's just a bad design direction.

In my opinion at least.

And clearly they are trying things out. Have you noticed that the leveling/balancing system has been quiet different in every single game? (I think... I admit I haven't played anything before Oblivion, but;) In Oblivion everything respawned, and always levelled, in Fallout 3 NOTHING respawned, and very little was levelled. Now, in Skyrim, it's in between. Certain things respawn, and others respawn slower, and certain things are levelled, while others aren't.

They are trying different things. Though, perhaps this thread can serve as a constructive base as to where they should head with their levelling endeaver, so that it can be better in future games.

Yes, trying is fine. But honestly it doesn't make logical sense to me to not just simply include enemies that are pre-set to certain levels above 50 and have them spawn when the player reaches level 50. They already do this with monsters below 50, at the very least they could just pump more health into them to make them more challenging (that's what they do anyway). It still makes for a (shallow) challenge but at least one is there instead of having an empty terrain from 50 to 81.

Actually some quests are level locked, like most of the Daedra quests, why do you think the invintation to the Dawnstar Meuseum doesn't come until you hit level 20?? Some quests are locked until you have completed certain parts of the main quest, why do you think the note for the repairing the Phial quest doesn't reach you until after you make it to the throat of the world to find Parthanax?? So what the OP is asking for has already been done in the game without having to go back to every place to find the quest, he just wants some additionaly content to be held off until you reach level 50. There are tons of caves and ruins that have nothing to do with any quest in the game, Bethesda could have saved soem of these for Level 40 - 50 quests, and even some up to level 60. Maybe when you hit level 50 you get a message from the Jarl of Solitude, and she has some thing critically improtant for you to track down for her, maybe an old War Axe of her husbands, from thier maybe you need to find an old historian in a Cabin in the woods, maybe you have stumbled across it but he was just a crazy old man, now... you can get some information out of him and then maybe a dungeon crawl for another clue... etc... the stories and possibilities are endless... if would be nice if during some of these updates they add some additonal quest content for us as we level up. Instead of adding addtional gimmicks... how hard is it really??

I too enjoy the lower levels more. Fortunately, it is perfectly possible to play the entire game as a level 1.

I have seen several people stating that they do that for a better challenge. That makes no sense to me. You are constantly making the game easier. As you are increasing the skill levels and the enemies are remaining stale. A better challenge would be to level up and just not spend any perks.

It's harder because you never close the gap with enemies that already start at higher levels than you if you always stay at level 1. If you remain at level 1, even if your One-Hand skill is at level 100, you won't be doing that much extra damage.

You actually are getting more powerful with each level past 50, even though your damage rating may not be changing. What people often forget is that a character's power level consists of not just damage rating, but also defensive rating and the differential between the character's overall strength and the opposition's.

For example: you have two characters, identical in all respects save that one is wearing Steel Armor while the other is wearing Ebony, and neither have been improved. The latter character is more powerful than the former, because he or she can take significantly more punishment if both are fighting the same opponent. By level 50 armor ceases to be a factor, since most characters are capped well before then, however HP is still quite relevant (and magicka, if not using enchanting); each level past 50 is another opportunity to increase that attribute, which increases his or her defensive rating and, therefore, overall power level. The opposition, on the other hand, isn't gaining any more health or (where applicable) magicka, so the character is becoming increasingly more powerful in comparison.

Of course, due to the almost complete lack of defenses or tactics on the part of most opponents both characters are horribly overpowered by that point anyway, rendering any post-50 gains largely academic. Which, arguably, is the real issue, since whether or not a character gains any additional power post-50 is basically irrelevant if said gains don't actually matter due to the opposition having long since been hopelessly outclassed.

But the game is catered towards 50 being the maximum level, according to Todd Howard.. After that you aren't really playing as the developers intended. To hit 81, you've mastered all 18 skills, which isn't how the game is meant to be played at all. So I'm going to have to disagree with you.

I agree; indeed on pc there are many mods that improve the game even from this standpoint (1/3 as fast if i'm not wrong on the last that i've installed)


Exactly.

Those that wants the game "to be like they want" have the option of mods; i know that not all have a good specified pc to run properly the game or the opportunity to buy another copy,but i'm even sure that having a game "adaptable" to your own preferences is a "luxury" - therefore you have to make some compromise if you want/have to play it on console; and this isn't Bethesda fault for the record..you have to blame someone else for this missed opportunity perhaps.

I'm convinced that the developers are the first to be ashamed that mods are not available for consoles..'cause these machines represents the large part of the market in this industry,correct if i'm wrong

It's funny how you guys want the perfect game... This game is one of the most sophisticated games I've played. If you don't want to feel like theres nothing left to do after level 50 how bout you go through the game slower. I also find it hard to believe anyone here has every quest completed every place found and have experienced every unique place that may not be marked on the map. I have a few friends at level 70 who just completed every quest and just found every place. My suggestion is you not fast travil and walk from place to place you will find all the places you missed. Me and my friend just walked to every city the other day it was mad fun.