Slick voice acting OR Textual (branching) dialogue trees [Pa : V - Skyrim

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:37 am

Graphics are good (better with mods), the world is huge, dungeons are beautiful, and the leveling system is interesting.

The story is mediocre, the guild stories are horrible, the dialogue is really bad, crafting is broken, races are meaningless, combat is bad (as usual), the spell system is bad, dungeon "puzzles" are laughable, there's no monster / dungeon boss variety, all around the writing is meh.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they've excelled in "all aspects." Still a great game, though.

What's bad about combat?

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:32 am

What's bad about combat?

It's boring. When you hit someone, they don't even wince or react to being struck. Here's combat in a nutshell:

Magic: Hold this button.
Melee: Tap this button.

The only form of combat that's bearable is sword and shield or archery, and even that gets tedious.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:54 am

Graphics are good (better with mods), the world is huge, dungeons are beautiful, and the leveling system is interesting.

The story is mediocre, the guild stories are horrible, the dialogue is really bad, crafting is broken, races are meaningless, combat is bad (as usual), the spell system is bad, dungeon "puzzles" are laughable, there's no monster / dungeon boss variety, all around the writing is meh.

I wouldn't go so far as to say they've excelled in "all aspects." Still a great game, though.

Well since I disagree with 90% of your complaints there, I guess i agree more with the first guy's assessment. Frankly while trying to not be insulting. If you miss so much of the variety I see in these things, Dialogue would have to be pretty over the top and blatant for you to get its "depth" if you really mean statments like " races are meaningless" Gross exaggeration doesn't help your point.

Put me down for voice acting. Much more immersive and , for me gives the NPCs more personality more quickly.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:53 am

It's boring. When you hit someone, they don't even wince or react to being struck. Here's combat in a nutshell:

Magic: Hold this button.
Melee: Tap this button.

The only form of combat that's bearable is sword and shield or archery, and even that gets tedious.

You are obviously playing a completely different version of Skyrim than I am. That's so far from the reality of the game I play, I don't even see a way to begin dialogue on this point.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:06 pm

You are obviously playing a completely different version of Skyrim than I am. That's so far from the reality of the game I play, I don't even see a way to begin dialogue on this point.

"Can't see a way to begin a dialogue" is copping out on an argument you're going to lose. Explain to me exactly how Skyrim's combat is complex or interesting. Please, rebut my point. I'd love to hear it.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 4:04 pm

Races are not meaningless.
Starting skills are meaningless, but I could never build a naked invincible Nord like I did with my Breton.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:42 am

It's boring. When you hit someone, they don't even wince or react to being struck. Here's combat in a nutshell:

Magic: Hold this button.
Melee: Tap this button.

The only form of combat that's bearable is sword and shield or archery, and even that gets tedious.

How would you improve combat? They also do react when you hit them, especially when you land a power attack. Ranged combat in any game is also just point and shoot, there is not a whole lot more to do than that.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:51 am

How would you improve combat? They also do react when you hit them, especially when you land a power attack. Ranged combat in any game is also just point and shoot, there is not a whole lot more to do than that.

Kingdoms of Amular: Reckoning is a good example, AND it's an open world game. You're citing the fact that you can stagger enemies... That doesn't make combat interesting or complex.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:35 am

Main characters could be voiced, like the top 20 important ones.
Then a few others could have intro-voices, so that their first dialogue line is voiced.
Other than that: Texted dialogue.

I don't mind reading the dialogue, it'd feel weird with how dialogue is done in this game, would work better for an isometric/3rdPP design.
But I could handle it if it meant that more dialogue could fit into the game.
Of course, with dialogue that actually "do" something there has to be coding and scripting involved.
Still.

Let me just write something up from scratch to show how easy it is, it's currently 03:56:

Ysolve/Ysolda (whatever her name is in Whiterun)

Spoiler

Player - I'm looking for work, do you have any advice on where I can find any?

Ysolve - You could ask the Jarl or go to the inn, although, I have a task I need help with.

Player a1 - Sorry, but I can't help you. (Bleh...)
Player a2 - What's on your mind?

Ysolve a1 - Oh... Okay. /end
Ysolve a2 - I asked a mercenary to get me some (what the hell was it called? Sleeping Tree Sap? Let's go with Tree Sap) Tree Sap from a crater to the west of Whiterun but he never came back and it's been a couple of days now. Could you go see if you can find him or the Tree Sap?

Player b1 - Sure.
Player b2 - How much is it worth your trouble?
Player b3 - Sorry, I have other things to do.
Player b4 - He's probably dead if it's been that long.
Player b5 - How about you come with me and get it, that way you don't need a mercenary to get you Tree Sap and can collect your own from watching me collect it. [Persuade] (Speech 80 required)

Ysolve b1 - Thank you so much! It's to the west of Whiterun, it's suppose to be in a crater of some sort, a tree that stands out. /end
Ysolve b2 - Well, I payed the other mercenary 200 gold (I have no idea how much gold it is, too long since I played this quest thingie), same price goes for you, 50 extra if you find out what happened to the other mercenary.
Ysolve b3 - Then why did you even ask me. /end
Ysolve b4 - Don't say things like that! He might be seriously hurt. By Azura... What if I sent him to his death..
Ysolve b5 - That... Sounds like a good plan actually, could help me financially to be more self sufficient. Okay, let's do it! /end (This means she'll become a temporary companion, she isn't strong though, so if she dies then she dies and quest is failed.)

Player b2a - Okay, I'll do it.
Player b2b - Increase it to 300 and I'll do it. [Persuade] (Speech 65 required)

Player b4a - I'm sorry, I'm sure he's fine.
Player b4b - Well, that's how life is, some die, some live, guess he finished the race before me, think he got a prize for it?
Player b4c - Sounds like you're concerned, I'll go see if I can find him.

Ysolve b2a - Great! It's to the west of Whiterun, it's suppose to be in a crater of some sort, a tree that stands out. /end

Ysolve b2b1 (failed) - Tsst... You're joking right? I'm not paying you that much.
Ysolve b2b2 (Success) - *sighs* Fine, I suppose I'm not gonna find anyone else in a while, and I really need that Tree Sap. It's to the west of Whiterun, it's suppose to be in a crater of some sort, a tree that stands out. /end

Ysolve b4a - I hope so... /end (She stops being worried about the tree sap and starts feeling bad about what she's done, you can no longer ask her about the tree sap, she doesn't want to talk about it anymore, you can on the other hand ask her about the mercenary and tell her you'll go find out what is fate is)
Ysolve b4b - You're a horrible person! Get away from me! /end (She refuses to talk to you after this)
Ysolve b4c - Really? Thank you, I can't stand the thought that I might have sent someone to his death for a small errand.. I sent him to the west of Whiterun to a crater. /end

Player b2b1 (failed) - Fine, I'll do it for the original fee then.

Ysolve b2b1 (failed2) - Okay, It's to the west of Whiterun, it's suppose to be in a crater of some sort, a tree that stands out. /end

And now it's 04:18, it took me 22 minutes to write this and I'm a complete amateur, not to mention that Bethesda had YEARS to write Skyrim.
So yes, text is superior IMO to voice acting, cause voice acting will always limit the amount of dialogue they can fit into the game.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 8:05 pm

I think this could also apply to buildings, which would offer much larger and more populated cities. Make them perma-locked-- just there for scenery. I found the towns in Skyrim to be lacking, even compared to much older games like Morrowind.

No. One of the first things about Elder Scrolls games that caught my attention was that all buildings could be entered, interacted with. Hey, leave out dialogue entirely rather than make useless, decorative buildings. Let's not ask to take away yet more of what makes the games great.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:57 pm

Kingdoms of Amular: Reckoning is a good example, AND it's an open world game. You're citing the fact that you can stagger enemies... That doesn't make combat interesting or complex.

The combat in Kingdoms of Amular: Reckoning must have changed significantly from the various gameplay videos you can see on YouTube, because in those videos it looks silly and arcadey. Of course, I can't think of any fantasy RPG that does combat better than the TES series because I can't think of another fantasy RPG that supports first person play.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 5:44 am

I support text based. I don't mind. Wasting there budget and time on 70+ voice actors is ridiculous imo. The voice acting is not even that much better than Oblivion. The quality mostly svcks and the quantity still feels like I am hearing the same voices over and over again. There could have been so much more if one simple thing was cut.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 4:15 am

The combat in Kingdoms of Amular: Reckoning must have changed significantly from the various gameplay videos you can see on YouTube, because in those videos it looks silly and arcadey. Of course, I can't think of any fantasy RPG that does combat better than the TES series because I can't think of another fantasy RPG that supports first person play.

Temple of Elemental Evil would be my first pick, Die by the Sword would be my second and Witcher 2 would be my third.. (and the most popular choice of those three, I think).

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:36 am

I would have extensive dialogue trees and bad voice acting.

But if I could have extensive dialogue and good voice acting that would be better.

But one or two lines of great voice acting with barely any dialogue- nope. Not I.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 6:40 pm

I still find it funny that my character says nothing and is all text based but the NPC's all have to talk. If I'm never going to talk audibly why do they always have too. I'm not a fan of text to be honest but it does seem a bit of a double standard. Of course I'm usually speaking for my character in the real world and saying something like "F off you stupid twit. Do you still not realize I'm your guild master? What a dumb ass."

Even though I prefer them to speak audibly there comes a point where they just need to shut up and they never do and it drives me crazy.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 2:05 am

I would have extensive dialogue trees and bad voice acting.
But if I could have extensive dialogue and good voice acting that would be better.

Same... Absolutely the same. I would like well done voice work; (full or partial, but only full if it did not hamstring the scope of the interactions).

There is a flip side to partial voiced dialog... and that is that the principle characters can have all that much more to say ~fully voiced. When you talk with the Lieutenant in Fallout that conversation can last 10 minutes.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 9:56 pm

Not having voiced speech in a game simply makes immersion impossible. It's one thing in a text adventure, but the last time I checked, text adventures haven't been an economically viable form of computer game for a good twenty years or so.

Video is required. So is audio - including audio speech for all speech. These days speaking in text is about as jarring as having somebody walk up to you and insist on conversing via written notes instead of actually talking - and that's exactly what kills immersion.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:33 pm

Not having voiced speech in a game simply makes immersion impossible. It's one thing in a text adventure, but the last time I checked, text adventures haven't been an economically viable form of computer game for a good twenty years or so.

Video is required. So is audio - including audio speech for all speech. These days speaking in text is about as jarring as having somebody walk up to you and insist on conversing via written notes instead of actually talking - and that's exactly what kills immersion.

When it is well done I am sure that is true. It is not well done, and the way it is in Skyrim kills immersion worse than moderately well done text.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 1:41 am

Really? An odd voice is more jarring to you than communicating through written notes with a person standing right in front of you?

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 7:39 pm

Not having voiced speech in a game simply makes immersion impossible. It's one thing in a text adventure, but the last time I checked, text adventures haven't been an economically viable form of computer game for a good twenty years or so.

Video is required. So is audio - including audio speech for all speech. These days speaking in text is about as jarring as having somebody walk up to you and insist on conversing via written notes instead of actually talking - and that's exactly what kills immersion.

This guy has $31,000 on one and its only a promise on Kickstarter. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zarf/hadean-lands-interactive-fiction-for-the-iphone

I do not personally understand the sentiment of text making immersion impossible. This does sound like the linchpin to the split opinions on it though and bears examining.
What exactly is it about having text instead of voiced dialogue that breaks immersion for you?

For myself, there is no break of immersion, and text can usually enhance it. Case in point (on many levels), I thought Shogun (the text) was far more immersive and interesting than Shogun (the movie); I'd argue that Shogun is almost impossible to set down once you start reading it; and almost instantly puts you in the 1600's with a clear view of both cultures interpretation on a given event.

Also I found that Fallout was an immensely immersive game ~most so (for me) in the Glow (West-Tek facility) reading the computer logs of the dead staff. :laugh:

Really? An odd voice is more jarring to you than communicating through written notes with a person standing right in front of you?

I was actually about to say the same thing about jarring voices; its true.

** But I did post previously that text does work best in games that hold the player out of hearing range, and can be awkward to read with a human face and moving mouth in the same view... Myself, I'd fix it by setting the player farther back from the PC.

» Mon Jun 11, 2012 11:19 pm

This guy has $31,000 on one and its only a promise on Kickstarter. http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/zarf/hadean-lands-interactive-fiction-for-the-iphone

I do not personally understand the sentiment of text making immersion impossible. This does sound like the linchpin to the split opinions on it though and bears examining.
What exactly is it about having text instead of voiced dialogue that breaks immersion for you?

For myself, there is no break of immersion, and can usually enhance it. Case in point (on many levels), I though Shogun (the text) was far more immersive and interesting than Shogun (the movie); I'd argue that Shogun is almost impossible to set down once you start reading it; and almost instantly puts you in the 1600's with a clear view of both cultures interpretation on a given event.

Also I found that Fallout was an immensely immersive game ~most so (for me) in the Glow (West-Tek facility) reading the computer logs of the dead staff. :laugh:

Books aren't a good comparison for the same reason that text adventures are not a good comparison - because in both the whole thing is text. Yes, a book can be immersive. So can a movie made of the book. But you know what would not be immersive? That same book, translated into a silent movie, with all the acting going on, and then, come a conversation, text cards start popping up.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:55 am

Really? An odd voice is more jarring to you than communicating through written notes with a person standing right in front of you?

An odd voice, repetitive, shallow dialogue, the voice actor changing in mid conversation, inappropriate statements--you ought to join the Mages Guild when you are the Archmage. Not well done. Irritating, maddening, immersion breaking.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 6:28 am

Books aren't a good comparison for the same reason that text adventures are not a good comparison - because in both the whole thing is text. Yes, a book can be immersive. So can a movie made of the book. But you know what would not be immersive? That same book, translated into a silent movie, with all the acting going on, and then, come a conversation, text cards start popping up.

Processing is a left-brain / right-brain thing, and if you are reading for comprehension the voices are redundant and distracting. Many will state that they read faster than the NPCs talk and it takes less time rather then them not having enough time to read subtitles.

I don't think anyone here wants an entirely mute game; but many would like a profit/cost compromise with their RPGs that allows for more content than is affordable to fully voice.
Immersion does not enter into it for many (most?) of them. It's not an issue; and it's not that they don't care for a lack of immersion from it ~it causes no lack of immersion.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 12:35 am

I don't think anyone here wants an entirely mute game; but many would like a profit/cost compromise with their RPGs that allows for more content than is affordable to fully voice.
Immersion does not enter into it for many (most?) of them.

If its cost effective then yes go for it, I said I was for text because the money could be spent on other parts of the game: what I really do not get is why they get these big budget actors to lend their voices, that just ratchets up the cost to the game and content suffers for it.

» Tue Jun 12, 2012 3:51 am

The immersive qualities of voiced actors seems highly superficial. Player agency is always the most important part of immersive design. Meaning the ability to interact with the game world in believable, meaningful, and expected ways. Arbitrarily preventing the player from pursuing certain conversation avenues would seem far more detrimental to immersion than whether you can hear somebody's voice or not.