Smithing perk tree is just plain stupid : V - Skyrim

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:31 pm

A good game design would of had a visual indicator like arrows letting the player know in advance how the skill tree worked.

Last time the game put in arrows, everyone [censored]ed about "dumbing down" and "hand holding" - now those same people want more arrows because they couldn't figure out that you go UP a perk tree, not DOWN.

:facepalm:

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:53 am

It's not a short cut. To achieve dragon scale through light armor requires one less skill point than going the heavy armor route. So allowing light armor users to perk "down stream" to daedric would allow them to invest an identical number of perks into the smithing tree and give them access to daedric weapons.

This is the *only* skill tree in the entire game that is shaped like this and it makes zero sense why a mastersmith at 100, can't pick a perk requiring 90.

The same reason why someone with 100 in Conjuration can't perk down from Twin Souls to Elemental Potency.

It is NOT the only skill tree shaped like that. There are plenty of perk trees that have dual paths leading to one perk. Conjration, Smithing, One Handed, and Two Handed are 4 skills just off the top of my head.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:19 pm

Last time the game put in arrows, everyone [censored]ed about "dumbing down" and "hand holding" - now those same people want more arrows because they couldn't figure out that you go UP a perk tree, not DOWN.

:facepalm:

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:48 am

Actually the tree is moronic from the get go for making the perk unlock certain types of materials. It is boring, it makes leveling up the skill a pointless grind if it not perked, and it creates a need to let iron items and iron items alone be capable of leveling the skill from 15-100. Getting access to the materials should have just been part of the skill increases, leveling up the skill would then require higher end materials, and then you could have a tree of 15 perks that modify the armor and weapons in interesting ways beyond the vanilla it is better than normal gear. For example you could have a 5 tier perk that unlocks the ability to add unique features to items 1 feature per perk. Then the rest of the tree could be various features you would unlock, resistances, bleeding damage, more maneuverable, bane features(better vs certain enemies), higher crit rates, special features on a crit, higher max damage resist etc.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:38 pm

Last time the game put in arrows, everyone [censored]ed about "dumbing down" and "hand holding" - now those same people want more arrows because they couldn't figure out that you go UP a perk tree, not DOWN.

:facepalm:

You don't see the difference?

:facepalm:

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:54 am

I'm still seeing people think this is about armor... I am about done with this topic. Its about the weapons. WEAPONS ffs. Why on earth would a light armor wearing individual want heavy armor unless they were way way into the game and leveling heavy just for kicks? I think people are not reading the whole thread. Also might want to look at the "light" armor side of the tree for a minute... A certain perk named advanced armors... Completely flattens the argument that we couldn't switch to "heavy" because right in the middle of the light tree is a bloody heavy armor...

Just face it, the tree was designed poorly. It could have been structured to focus on your characters needs while still making you separate from other smiths. As it stands, a long term investment for a light armor user would point them down the heavy tree. This way at endgame they can have the best weapons and armor for themselves with no wasted perks. This is a terrible design. We CAN still get everything, but why do we need to wait till lv 100 to use crafted armor or waste perks on eventually useless functions?

What exactly is stopping you from using Daedric weapons with Light Armor?

You do realize that the Smithing tree is not a weapons proficiency tree, right? You can still pick up and use Daedric weapons just as easily as anyone else.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:09 pm

A light armor user should invest no points in the light tree of smithing but instead should go ONLY into heavy in order to ensure the best outcome for themselves in the end for both armor and weapons. Yes.... Yes it does need to be scrapped.

And why would you want glass weapons that are weaker than the items in heavy exactly? lol

Glass weapons are lighter, thus strike faster.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:41 pm

You can still use daedric weapons with light armor. You just can't make them without investing in the heavy side smithing.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:07 am

You don't see the difference?

:facepalm:

:facepalm:

Spoiler

:facepalm:

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 11:09 am

What exactly is stopping you from using Daedric weapons with Light Armor?

You do realize that the Smithing tree is not a weapons proficiency tree, right? You can still pick up and use Daedric weapons just as easily as anyone else.

You clearly didn't read all my posts. The daedric perk allows you to improve them twice as much.... So in order to get the best weapons and armor a light armor user must invest in heavy only (this is pointless) instead of wasting perks in the light tree (which happens to actually contain heavy armor in it through advanced armor). So unlike a heavy armor user, a light user has to wait till smithing level 100 to use it for armor unless they waste perks in the light tree for no reason. I feel like I am just repeating the same thing over and over...

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:09 am

And why would you want glass weapons that are weaker than the items in heavy exactly? lol

They weigh less, strike faster, and use less stamina? This isn't a MMO, you don't need to max out your "toon" or "re-roll" your characters, and you don't need to min-max to become super powerful. I prefer the look of Glass Armor with a hood, so I took the light armor perks.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:57 pm

You don't see the difference?

:facepalm:

Nope. One arrow tells you where to go and what to do - people [censored].

Now they want another arrow to tell them where to go and what to do.

And one look at the perk trees and it was blatantly obvious that the perk trees went UP, and that the Light Armor and Heavy Armor paths were leading UP into Dragon Armor separately.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:46 pm

Sounds like TC is only worried about min/max. You dont even need smithing to become a badass, OPed murder machine.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:37 am

Just face it, the tree was designed poorly. It could have been structured to focus on your characters needs while still making you separate from other smiths. As it stands, a long term investment for a light armor user would point them down the heavy tree. This way at endgame they can have the best weapons and armor for themselves with no wasted perks. This is a terrible design. We CAN still get everything, but why do we need to wait till lv 100 to use crafted armor or waste perks on eventually useless functions?

Now I strongly believe that the devs first designed the constellation in the form of an anvil, and then put perks in semi-random places just to fit that drawing. Meaning the game mechanics design was clearly secondary, resulting in what we see now.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:52 am

They weigh less, strike faster, and use less stamina? This isn't a MMO, you don't need to max out your "toon" or "re-roll" your characters, and you don't need to min-max to become super powerful. I prefer the look of Glass Armor with a hood, so I took the light armor perks.

But they need the DPS and the comparison ratios with the statistical probability that balances that against cooking an apple pie.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 1:30 pm

Sorry you didn't realize you were choosing a particular line of smithing, but the oversight is yours, not the game. The perks build on each other. This is true of any tree, not only smithing.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:52 pm

They weigh less, strike faster, and use less stamina? This isn't a MMO, you don't need to max out your "toon" or "re-roll" your characters, and you don't need to min-max to become super powerful. I prefer the look of Glass Armor with a hood, so I took the light armor perks.

Then that is a choice you made. Though I may want to take this opportunity to say I have yet to use light armor. I have a heavy armor warrior and an unarmored mage. I don't see why a light armor user has to perk down my tree to get the best weapons when I don't have to go down theirs. I like the way daedric looks, so why can't they level smithing normally, make regular use of smithing, and get the better weapons with out wasting perks? Besides. Glass speed, weight, etc. won't add up to deadric weapons.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:28 am

Or they could have split Dragon Scale and Dragon Plate accordingly

This.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:33 pm

You clearly didn't read all my posts. The daedric perk allows you to improve them twice as much.... So in order to get the best weapons and armor a light armor user must invest in heavy only (this is pointless) instead of wasting perks in the light tree (which happens to actually contain heavy armor in it through advanced armor). So unlike a heavy armor user, a light user has to wait till smithing level 100 to use it for armor unless they waste perks in the light tree for no reason. I feel like I am just repeating the same thing over and over...

I don't have sympathy for you that you can only pwn face with either Glass weapons, or unimproved Daedric weapons, instead of fully improved Daedric weaponry.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 5:09 pm

player.addperk 000cb413

OH GOD WHAT WILL THE NPC'S DO, ITS NOT FAIIIIIIIIIIIIR or BALAAAAAAAANCED

As if TES was ever a balanced game, as if melee is remotely balanced with the whole 30x damage etc. etc.

Seems like this whole thing is affecting you way more than the console code would affect anybody else though.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:00 am

I don't have sympathy for you that you can only pwn face with either Glass weapons, or unimproved Daedric weapons, instead of fully improved Daedric weaponry.

I am not in that situation as I am not a light armor user, so the jokes on you? A bad design is a bad design and I will state so even if it does not effect me.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 9:59 am

Who knows I can learn how to craft the ultimate dragon armor from making sickles and hammers ....

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:32 am

Then that is a choice you made. Though I may want to take this opportunity to say I have yet to use light armor. I have a heavy armor warrior and an unarmored mage. I don't see why a light armor user has to perk down my tree to get the best weapons when I don't have to go down their. I like the way daedric looks, so why can't they level smithing normally, make regular use of smithing, and get the better weapons with out wasting perks? Besides. Glass speed, weight, etc. won't add up to deadric weapons.

A Daedric sword does a whopping 2 more damage than a glass sword. The glass sword weighs 2 pounds less than the Daedric sword. I'd say they're pretty much balanced. I won't say that I particularly like Bethesda's new perk tree, but it's built in a way where you're almost forced to get perks that you don't want in order to get the perks you do want. The problem isn't exclusive to Smithing.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:09 pm

A Daedric sword does a whopping 2 more damage than a glass sword. The glass sword weighs 2 pounds less than the Daedric sword. I'd say they're pretty much balanced. I won't say that I particularly like Bethesda's new perk tree, but it's built in a way where you're almost forced to get perks that you don't want in order to get the perks you do want. The problem isn't exclusive to Smithing.

I was against perks in the first place. Now that I have seen it, I am even more against it. I am more than aware of the fact that this happens other places. This case wouldnt be a problem if daedric wasn't at the bloody top of the other side, though with the way they made it... it has no other place to go.

» Sun Dec 11, 2011 12:24 pm

I don't like that heavy armor wearers can craft weapons and armor.