Such a Shame Skyrim Pt2

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:23 am

I detected another opportunity to speak out against Oblivion. JUST IN THE NICK OF TIME.

Visually speaking, Oblivion has a sort of oddly out of place surrealistic, uncanny valley approach to everything. It looks GOOD, but in that strange sort of way where you're very much convinced everything down to the specks of dirt on the path you walk was recently pulled out of celophane. It's very "fake." Not to say that Morrowind, or even Skyrim, is the height of realistic quality, but seeing equipment on the glossy haired, oddly textured bodies just made it look like you sort of stuffed half a wad of play-dough beneath a period piece plate helmet and called it a guard.

Voice-acting-wise, Oblivion suffered greatly from being one of the first forays into full voice acting, with a very limited stable of voice actors. It was very hard to lose myself in the countryside when I could hear three people all with the exact same voices talking about one another. Had I not turned around to witness the conversation, I would have been very much convinced that I should be slowly walking away from an obvious sufferer of multiple-personality-disorder. Morrowind was not voiced outside of greeting text and the occasional quest snippet in the later expansion packs, so it's kind of an unfair comparison, but those greeting voices became somewhat endeared as "the standard sound of [Race]" and hearing the majority of them get shuffled around and re-arranged was a jarring transition.

Storywise, Oblivion tried too hard for the epic, obvious, save the world type motif. There was very little opportunity to logically step off the rails and get some side-questing done without feeling like you were carelessly endangering the known world, due to the fact a psychotic cult of mages and daedra worshippers was in fact trying to destroy said entire world. Taking missions to clear rats, bats, elephants, and go exploring for the city guard while being confronted with giant hellfire spewing, demon spawning stone monoliths is a little strange at the best of times. You are introduced to the most powerful man in all of civilized Tamriel within the first three minutes (after character generation), seen him cut down, given a carte blanche pardon and then told to go find the secret grandmaster of the secret organization, all within the first 30 minutes of the game.

Morrowind, by contrast, dumped you in an alien land, full of an alien people, with alien culture. You aren't even really aware of what the main storyline is until halfway through it, you aren't even ever formally confirmed to be The Hero, you just kind of clumsily stumble into a set of convenient parameters that make you sound kind of like The Hero, which I have never seen a game do again.

Even Skyrim doesn't grab you by the daddy-bags and throw you into the Save The World motif as fast as Oblivion did. I originally thought - incorrectly - that the Civil War was the main questline, as did several of my friends, and several people I had discussed it with, due to the fact none of us had treated ourselves to any pre-game spoilers. You're never really ordered to follow the main quest. You're given "false" information as to who would be the best authority to speak with concerning the dragons. You're only sent to Whiterun as a very polite request. Even after you're outed as the Dragonborn, no one tells you it's time for you to go end the Big Bad Dragon, they just say you're the best equipped to fight dragons in general. Even when you go speak to the Greybeards they don't rush you or reveal the Big Bad Plan, you're encouraged to find your own destiny, on your own time. The only way you get that "locked" sensation during the main quest is if you actively pursue it.

Meanwhile, Oblivion shoves the entire premise down your throat harder and faster than the original Mass Effect, with the same end result : How are you supposed to justify wandering off and exploring, or doing anything, while you're faced with the world destroying Oblivion Crisis.


i agree with pretty much all that except for the fact that none of it has anything to do with anything i said. did you miss quote?
User avatar
rae.x
 
Posts: 3326
Joined: Wed Jun 14, 2006 2:13 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:29 am

i agree with pretty much all that except for the fact that none of it has anything to do with anything i said. did you miss quote?

I read your post as asking for opinions about how Morrowind has aged better over time than Oblivion, and how elements from the feel of Morrowind were replicated by Skyrim. Did I misread your intentions?
User avatar
x_JeNnY_x
 
Posts: 3493
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2006 3:52 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:36 am

Oh dear lord... hear that Bethesda? We don't have enough shades of lipstick to bring out the color in Altmer eyes. Oh boy.
You have completely missed the point of my previous posts if that's really the conclusion you have drawn from them. I never said that Skyrim should allow you to customize faces to the extent of Saints Row 2, I simply used that dated game as an example of what great customization can look like. I doubt Bethesda would ever go down that route anyways, seeing as how they completely ditched the face sliders from Oblivion, among other things.

The amount of customization options has nose-dived over the last 10 years in TES. Skyrim has much fewer options for customization than previous installments in the series. Hell, even Oblivion puts Skyrim to shame just with its spell selection alone.

Doesn't it make sense to ask for developers to ADD to a series, NOT take away from it???
User avatar
Hannah Barnard
 
Posts: 3421
Joined: Fri Feb 09, 2007 9:42 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:47 am

Oblivion svcked so bad, it scared me from trying Morrowind.

:confused:
User avatar
Dawn Farrell
 
Posts: 3522
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 9:02 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 3:10 pm

No!
NO.

Have you not played Morrowind or Oblivion?
There are literally customizations options that have been TAKEN AWAY in Skyrim.
That's why it's a stepbackward.

Um, yeah...

...hey Enid, can you get MIcrosoft on the phone?

Yeah, this guy wants his .BAT and .SYS files back. BAT and SYS... AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS. No, they're not part of the SDK, those are things from like, well, last century really. I don't know why he wants them in Windows 8, he just says that removing stuff that nobody is really missing is taking a steo backward. Yes, as a matter of fact I do think he still has impacted wisdom teeth. You're right, that might be why he was so cranky. ;)
User avatar
Kelly John
 
Posts: 3413
Joined: Tue Jun 13, 2006 6:40 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:42 pm

What leaves me scratching my head is how someone can say, with all of the races available to play as, all of the minute details of that individual that can be altered, all of the armor sets that can be used, all of the weapons that can be wielded, all of the amulets and rings, potions, enchantments, etc. that can be bought, found, or made, that Skyrim is "lacking in customization". Whoopie! Hair Dye! Awesome job Fable dudes. Seriously? You seriously believe that this is a "step backward", not having dye-able shirts? Well, yeah, I guess y'all are serious. My daughter had a game you'll love when she was five, something about Barbie or something like that.

More content?

Really recolors of the same outfits is content?

You know I got the Dawnguard DLC, and you'd think with all the armor choices I'd get a set of new robes.

Well I heard there was set of Vampire Robes and I thought, hmmm interesting.

Do you know what the Vampire Robes were? Instead of some cool, leather, robe that matched the vampire armor, but ina rober form; it was the Belted Tunic recolored black with no pants. Oh yeah, that's great content right there. Really good job there.
User avatar
SamanthaLove
 
Posts: 3565
Joined: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:54 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:37 am

Um, yeah...

...hey Enid, can you get MIcrosoft on the phone?

Yeah, this guy wants his .BAT and .SYS files back. BAT and SYS... AUTOEXEC.BAT and CONFIG.SYS. No, they're not part of the SDK, those are things from like, well, last century really. I don't know why he wants them in Windows 8, he just says that removing stuff that nobody is really missing is taking a steo backward. Yes, as a matter of fact I do think he still has impacted wisdom teeth. You're right, that might be why he was so cranky. :wink:

What?
Do you actually just not understand that there are less armor pieces every game?
Less accessories (i.e. enchantments) to wear?
Less spell effects?
NO Spellmaking?
Less skills?
NO Attributes?
Less race dichotomy?

These are all steps backward in terms of customization.
What part of this do you not understand?
User avatar
Stat Wrecker
 
Posts: 3511
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:14 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 11:59 am

I read your post as asking for opinions about how Morrowind has aged better over time than Oblivion, and how elements from the feel of Morrowind were replicated by Skyrim. Did I misread your intentions?

kinda, meant graphics wise there is no way Morrowind looks better than anything except daggerfall. I assumed buddy was talking about game play similarities between skyrim and morrowind not so much the feel of the two. I could be misunderstanding him though and you are right.

Morrowind and Skyrim are on two complete opposites spectrums of the universe, they are not even close to being close.
User avatar
natalie mccormick
 
Posts: 3415
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 8:36 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:22 pm

What?
Do you actually just not understand that there are less armor pieces every game?
Less accessories (i.e. enchantments) to wear?
Less spell effects?
NO Spellmaking?
Less skills?
NO Attributes?
Less race dichotomy?

These are all steps backward in terms of customization.
What part of this do you not understand?
"Uh.. well... uh... TOO SUPERFLUOUS."
User avatar
CArla HOlbert
 
Posts: 3342
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 11:35 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:17 am

You have completely missed the point of my previous posts if that's really the conclusion you have drawn from them. I never said that Skyrim should allow you to customize faces to the extent of Saints Row 2, I simply used that dated game as an example of what great customization can look like. I doubt Bethesda would ever go down that route anyways, seeing as how they completely ditched the face sliders from Oblivion, among other things.

The amount of customization options has nose-dived over the last 10 years in TES. Skyrim has much fewer options for customization than previous installments in the series. Hell, even Oblivion puts Skyrim to shame just with its spell selection alone.

Doesn't it make sense to ask for developers to ADD to a series, NOT take away from it???


No it doesn't. Why? It takes away from content development time. Slightly more flared nostrils are really and truly pointless. Individually pasting on wrinkles, black eyes, missing teeth... Pointless, pointless, pointless. They're all dev time wasters that will NOT add to gameplay or story. Spellmaking, yeah, that I'll give you, would be nice, but not essential to playing and enjoying the game. I'll never forget Fable... not because it was a great series. It was okay. But because I could not believe that ANYONE would really buy this game for the option to get fat if you "don't eat right", scarred if "you don't behave right", and the umpteen number of (some DLC, mind you) dye colors for outfits. What wasted dev time, and it showed. Glaringly. Short story, maybe 15-20 hours of play through in Fable III, and definitely 0 on teh replayability scale. Sorry, no, I'll take the meat over the glaze any day.
User avatar
Melanie
 
Posts: 3448
Joined: Tue Dec 26, 2006 4:54 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:29 am

No it doesn't. Why? It takes away from content development time. Slightly more flared nostrils are really and truly pointless. Individually pasting on wrinkles, black eyes, missing teeth... Pointless, pointless, pointless. They're all dev time wasters that will NOT add to gameplay or story. Spellmaking, yeah, that I'll give you, would be nice, but not essential to playing and enjoying the game. I'll never forget Fable... not because it was a great series. It was okay. But because I could not believe that ANYONE would really buy this game for the option to get fat if you "don't eat right", scarred if "you don't behave right", and the umpteen number of (some DLC, mind you) dye colors for outfits. What wasted dev time, and it showed. Glaringly. Short story, maybe 15-20 hours of play through in Fable III, and definitely 0 on teh replayability scale. Sorry, no, I'll take the meat over the glaze any day.

I like dyes!

Thank you very much. Every game should have dies. It makes the armor and the way your character look personal to you. I don't like the color of some of the armor, so I'd like to change it. Especially since I don't have pieces.

You know I'd like to make a guy wear some greaves and some metal boots, with a cloth shirt, but I can't.

I'd like to make a pirate woman with a pair of pants, but every outfit for the females turns into a dress.
User avatar
Alina loves Alexandra
 
Posts: 3456
Joined: Mon Jan 01, 2007 7:55 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 12:10 pm

"Uh.. well... uh... TOO SUPERFLUOUS."

I don't even understand what the guy I'm arguing thinks I'm trying to say.

No it doesn't. Why? It takes away from content development time. Slightly more flared nostrils are really and truly pointless. Individually pasting on wrinkles, black eyes, missing teeth... Pointless, pointless, pointless. They're all dev time wasters that will NOT add to gameplay or story. Spellmaking, yeah, that I'll give you, would be nice, but not essential to playing and enjoying the game.

Didn't take from Dragon Age Origin's development time to have characters that don't look like total ass 90% of the time.
In my opinion, Spellmaking is as essential to a TES game as playing a Dunmer.
Even though I don't use either utility.
User avatar
Haley Merkley
 
Posts: 3356
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:53 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:16 pm

More content? Really recolors of the same outfits is content? You know I got the Dawnguard DLC, and you'd think with all the armor choices I'd get a set of new robes. Well I heard there was set of Vampire Robes and I thought, hmmm interesting. Do you know what the Vampire Robes were? Instead of some cool, leather, robe that matched the vampire armor, but ina rober form; it was the Belted Tunic recolored black with no pants. Oh yeah, that's great content right there. Really good job there.

I challenge you to reread the post you quoted and show me where is stated any of this. That Skyrim had more of X versus, well, versus anything. I simply stated that the levels of customization are already off the charts, all things considered.

Dawnguard, yeah, actually DOES contain quite a few new armors, vampire (3 colors, I think), DG heavy and light in various colors, unique shields (and weapons), and even Ancient Falmer and full sets of new Heavy and Hardened Falmer. So, no, they may not be armors you personally wanted, but there are plenty of new armors in there. Now, here's your binky, can't help you on the customizable blanky tho, sorry.
User avatar
Kristian Perez
 
Posts: 3365
Joined: Thu Aug 23, 2007 3:03 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:01 pm

I simply stated that the levels of customization are already off the charts, all things considered.

Not when compared to other TES games...
User avatar
Lisha Boo
 
Posts: 3378
Joined: Fri Aug 18, 2006 2:56 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 8:08 pm

Not when compared to other TES games...
KDodds is going to mention Morrowind's, as well as Arena's and Daggerfall's character creation.
User avatar
Lifee Mccaslin
 
Posts: 3369
Joined: Fri Jun 01, 2007 1:03 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:59 am

I don't even understand what the guy I'm arguing thinks I'm trying to say. Didn't take from Dragon Age Origin's development time to have characters that don't look like total ass 90% of the time. In my opinion, Spellmaking is as essential to a TES game as playing a Dunmer. Even though I don't use either utility.

DA:O is a linear world, linear story, hard set characters in your party, limited armor sets (severely compared to Skyrim), etc. And yeah, time that is spent developing character customization tools for fingernail length and color DOES take away from meat and bones dev.
User avatar
Victoria Vasileva
 
Posts: 3340
Joined: Sat Jul 29, 2006 5:42 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:27 am

limited armor sets (severely compared to Skyrim)

DA:O actually has more armor sets than Skyrim.
User avatar
Chris BEvan
 
Posts: 3359
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:40 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:42 am

DA:O actually has more armor sets than Skyrim.

If we're not counting recolors, which Bethesda has been attacked about in Dawnguard, going by the unique model and not texture :

Robes
Leather
Studded Leather
Chain
Dwarven Plate
Heavy Plate
Dragon Armor

Off the top of my head.

vs.

Clothes
Hooded Robes
Apprentice through Adept Robes
Expert and Master
Archmage's Robes
Fur
Leather
Vampire
Scaled
Glass
Dragonscale
Dragonbone
Daedric
Ebony
Orcish
Dwarven
Steel
Falmer
Elven

Interchangeable gloves, boots, helmets for both.

Also, I don't feel like we should be championing the game that introduced taking our money for easymode gift / prank disposition items and the "Ho there, Warden, I have traveled far to your camp to ask you to visit the Microsoft Store to buy my adventure!" tactic of DLC advertisemant if we're discussing shady business practices.
User avatar
Code Affinity
 
Posts: 3325
Joined: Wed Jun 13, 2007 11:11 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:11 pm

Not when compared to other TES games...


Really? Really? Please go back and play all of them. Create your character. What? Where's this, where's that? Yeah, I know, Skyrim added a lot to CC, more along the lines of DA:O, right? Same basic armors, same basic weapons, some removed, yeah, whole lot of new specials added. What, pray tell, is SO missing? Spellmaking? Yeah, and oh yeah, those friggin endless missing spear complaints. So, really, it comes down to spellmaking. That's it. Honestly, I really don't see the big deal. You have tons of tools to use as a mage. Would it be nice to make your own? Yes, absolutely. But as far as character customization goes, Skyrim's leaner system is, IMO, far superior to Morrowind's superfluous details that already got trimmed in OB (Seriously? I can level by running and jumping? This is a joke, right?) Do you miss some of those things. Well, duh, obviously, but your PC has SO many choices, so many ways to customize that it's a fair bet that no two players will ever have the same PC.

I get it, you want more. That's not gameplay, that's control freak. Roll 'em up and play. Enjoy. And if you don't like, heck go back to MW.
User avatar
Haley Merkley
 
Posts: 3356
Joined: Sat Jan 13, 2007 12:53 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 9:29 am

If we're not counting recolors, going by the unique model and not texture

Not unique texture?
I'm counting both recolors and different textures, meaning Dragon Age wins.

Barring that it also wins because it has medium armor.
User avatar
Cat Haines
 
Posts: 3385
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:27 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:37 pm

Not unique texture?
I'm counting both recolors and different textures, meaning Dragon Age wins.

Barring that it also wins because it has medium armor.

Um, no, just simply no, not by sheer count. And how in the heck does splitting out chain into a third class mean "there are more armors"? Weapons, armors, spells, powers (including shouts), Skyrim is far and away the "winner" when stacked up against DA:O, and don't even go to DAII. And, if ME3 is any indication of where DA3 is going... I won't be on board for that AT ALL.
User avatar
Annick Charron
 
Posts: 3367
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2006 3:03 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:18 am

Create your character. What? Where's this, where's that? Yeah, I know, Skyrim added a lot to CC, more along the lines of DA:O, right? Same basic armors, same basic weapons, some removed, yeah, whole lot of new specials added. What, pray tell, is SO missing? Spellmaking? Yeah, and oh yeah, those friggin endless missing spear complaints. So, really, it comes down to spellmaking. That's it. Honestly, I really don't see the big deal. You have tons of tools to use as a mage. Would it be nice to make your own? Yes, absolutely. But as far as character customization goes, Skyrim's leaner system is, IMO, far superior to Morrowind's superfluous details that already got trimmed in OB (Seriously? I can level by running and jumping? This is a joke, right?)

No, not along the lines of Dragon Age: Origins. In DA:O you can make people who look like people! A strange concept in a Bethesda game, I know.
Spellmaking is missing, yes. Lately people have seemed to be downplaying that for some reason, which I find inexcusable.
And, oh, I guess I'm such a horrifyingly insane person who wants more weapon types than 1) Swing fast and stupidly or 2) Swing slow and stupidly.
And no, there are not tons of tools to use as a mage, the amount of "mage tools" in Skyrim is a pittance, compared to ANY other fantasy game with magic, let alone past TES games.

And getting rid of Acrobatics and Atheletics removes entire playstyles.

And I'm sorry if I prefer actual gameplay options as opposed to 50 different beards.
I can tell you've drank the Kool Aid, so to speak, on this issue, of course. So there will be no convincing.
I can only pity you.
User avatar
Eibe Novy
 
Posts: 3510
Joined: Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:32 am

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:09 am

Not unique texture?
I'm counting both recolors and different textures, meaning Dragon Age wins.

Barring that it also wins because it has medium armor.

True. There are 33 individual sets in Dragon Age : Origins. That, however, includes a number of purchaseable addons over a three year lifespan and full expansion pack. Without considering the variant of Steel with/without shoulders, Banded Iron, Wolf Armor, Ancient Nord Armor, Guard armor, the Ebony Mail, the recolors and remodels in Dawnguard, there are still 19 examples on my list. Even failing to consider those forgotten additions, I think they can muster another fourteen in a year.

The second part is preference. Medium Armor was only introduced in Morrowind, it wasn't present in Arena, Daggerfall, Battlespire, or Oblivion. That's like saying the series has gone downhill due to the fact Passwall never came back after Arena.

I'm not really arguing the merit of your over-arcing point, I just don't think Dragon Age is really deserving of a pedestal.
User avatar
Francesca
 
Posts: 3485
Joined: Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:26 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:26 am

Um, no, just simply no, not by sheer count. And how in the heck does splitting out chain into a third class mean "there are more armors"? Weapons, armors, spells, powers (including shouts), Skyrim is far and away the "winner" when stacked up against DA:O, and don't even go to DAII. And, if ME3 is any indication of where DA3 is going... I won't be on board for that AT ALL.

DA:O Armors
Light:
Rough
Cured
Leather
Hardened
Reinforced
Inscribed
Drakeskin
Dragon Wing
High Dragon Hide

Medium
Iron
Grey Iron
Steel
Veridium
Red Steel
Silverite
Dragon Bone
White Steel
Volcanic Aurum

Heavy
Same list as Medium, with different models.

Massive
Same list as Medium, and Heavy, with more distinct models.

All these seperate armors have different stats, making them even more distinct.
So, yes there are more in DA:O


I'm not really arguing the merit of your over-arcing point, I just don't think Dragon Age is really deserving of a pedestal.

My original comparison was only of character creation (although I do also feel DA:O is the superior RPG, and Fantasy game in general), but the other person mentioned armors.
User avatar
Tom
 
Posts: 3463
Joined: Sun Aug 05, 2007 7:39 pm

Post » Wed Aug 29, 2012 6:29 pm

Oh, we're getting into the individual quality levels of each bracket as well? Then yes, Dragon Age pulls ahead by a league. But if the argument is customization, putting on a slightly darker or lighter version of the armor you've already been looking at since the start of your Origin is hardly something to crow from the belltowers.
User avatar
Umpyre Records
 
Posts: 3436
Joined: Tue Nov 13, 2007 4:19 pm

PreviousNext

Return to V - Skyrim